Last x Days Posts  1 | 3 | 7 Days  Search  Topics  Tree View  Help
  Soarer Central * Off-Topic * Toyota agrees to pay $16.4 mln fine * Archive through June 15, 2010 Previous Previous    Next Next  

Author Message
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS

Posts: 2430
Reg: 08-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 06:04 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In time I am sure drive by wire will be OK. People used to hate automatic transmissions but honestly I wouldn't drive a manual ever again given the choice.

But I hate current drive by wire.
Lucas Waterworth
Tinkerer
north island, nz
2.5tt auto

Posts: 48
Reg: 03-2010

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 07:20 pm, by:  Lucas Waterworth (Gadget666) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

my first reaction to a jammed throttle in my soarer would be to slam the gear selector forward until it hit the stopper that prevents shifting into reverse, thus selecting neutral, let the rpm limiter prevent engine damage, and stop with my power assisted brakes and power steering working. the fact that this cannot be acheived in any modern car is, to me, poor design.
if you are lucky enough, you will be on an empty motorway when the event occurs, but what about the many winding roads with a rickety fence between you and a freefall that nz has an abundance of? to hell with your fancy electronics that cut the fuel etc, just give me neutral.
Costa Tsimiklis
DieHard
Victoria
386.2 rwkw Soon T51R or GT4094 :-O

Posts: 535
Reg: 07-2008

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 08:08 pm, by:  Costa Tsimiklis (Driftshop) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have not seen any reports to indicate that it was a software issue, however there is definitely a mechanical issue. They tried to blame the carpets etc, but I think Toyota North America were responsible for bullsh.it cover ups to avoid litigation.

Drive by wire is Not a new thing. I've got a 750IL V12 BMW with Bosch Drive By Wire, built in 1989. I have not heard of anything related to the throttles being jambed by this system etc, but it could happen to any type of throttle, cable or DBW.

Just like with any other major engineering project, improvements are made when the fault becomes noticed and lives are lost. In this case there will be legislated redundancies in software nd hardware for DBW cars to be safer in case of a stuck throttle. A simple solution that they could flash onto the ECU would be if the Brakes are being depressed for longer than 1.5-2 seconds while the throttle is open, then the throttle should shut off. This would save 99% of the problems with a stuck throttle. Most people do not drive with a foot on each pedal on the street.

Tne damage is done either way.
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS

Posts: 2433
Reg: 08-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 09:32 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It should not have cost lives to re-learn this. Toyota had a duty of care to provide a safe vehicle. It is reasonable to expect safety features that have been in cars for years to still be there. They got sloppy and negligent.
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 1497
Reg: 10-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 09:37 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lucas, vaccum boosted brakes still work for 2-3 applications after the engine is turned off and electronic power assist typically 8-10 applications.

Driving with power steer off is ok some of the track guys have done it so it isn't a bad thing to shut the engine down.

As to the brakes being on not sure how this is relevant as the failure was at the engine throttle body being physically stuck. No matter what the ECU told the motor to do with the throttle it wouldn't move so any extra under this condition return to close throttle would have zero effect.

All that is required is to insure neutral can be selected by the driver, the engine can be shut off and brakes are adiquate to stop the car even under WOT.
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 1498
Reg: 10-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 09:48 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DBW does already work in some cars, example the pulsar it works unless you are a particularly driver you wouldn't notice it was there, you can select neutral and turn off the car with the key.

Apart from very light load low throttle position changes it is not noticeable so IMO it works fine but I would rather a cable for the precise control.

As per above I have read a lot of BS on the net about this issue but from what I have read the cars engine can be shut off by pushing and holding the start/stop button so it appears as though most likely the drivers contribuited to the issue by either not pushing the button or not pushing the button long enough.

If there is more too it and there is any information that proves otherwise by all means posted it up.
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS

Posts: 2434
Reg: 08-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 01:47 am, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Damian are you saying in the Toyota case it was the throttle body that was stuck? I know that used to happen with Volvos but the Toyota problems I have heard of have only been the pedal.

I don't value holding the button as a proper solution. It's not obvious. If you push the button the engine should turn off. Make the button harder or something if you're worried about accidental presses. Holding the button is just not obvious to the average person, and that's who you're selling the car to. And it is not reasonable to say it's buried in the manual somewhere either.
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 1499
Reg: 10-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 11:49 am, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Miles Baker wrote on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 01:47 am:

Damian are you saying in the Toyota case it was the throttle body that was stuck? I know that used to happen with Volvos but the Toyota problems I have heard of have only been the pedal.




I have read this (stuck throttle probably motor assembely failure caused by corrosion in cold climates where salt is used on the road) on the internet meaning it may or may not be correct.

Even if this is not the fault there should be a fail safe mode to deal with this situation.

As to shutting the engine off I read the button requires to be pressed for 1 second. Not a long time and IMO this is reasonable ie 10 seconds would be way too long but 1 second you should be able to deal with and avoids accidential bumping the button (but it might be too long if the driver poorly skilled panics, and yes cable and throttle linkage failures in the passed have caused fatal accidents with panicing drivers).

Again this came from the net so not really sure this is the case ie there could be a certain speed override ie 22km/hr preventing shutdown.
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS

Posts: 2435
Reg: 08-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 12:32 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No all reports on the Toyota issue that I have read are that it is the pedal sticking, not the throttle motor. The last major throttle sticking issue I heard of was Volvos which were fitted with a piddly motor. It didn't have the torque to deal with eventual varnish build up on the butterfly. You are right, all of these situations should be thought of and dealt with in the design phase. Again, features in the old system were not reproduced or synthesised. On all my carbies I fit two throttle return springs of different types anchored to different points. That is what the old timey books say to do, an that is the way cars have been built to provide multiple guards against failure. New systems have ditched old safety features. Not cool.

Regarding the button, I was led to believe in the loaner Lexus accident that that button was longer than 1 second. Even so, when you change a familiar control you need to make absolutely sure the new control's operation is immediately obvious to any driver. I don't feel any "hold it down" operation is immediately obvious to everyone. You and me, sure. But we're not average.

If I was designing a mass market button start, I would either make it require a strong or deep enough press that accidental presses are not an option, or I would recess the button, or look for some other kind of control that turns a little like a key or something analogous to that. I would not have multiple ways of operating a momentary button. Not everyone is used to that. I wonder if in a panic situation even I would think "hey let's try holding the button down". Or if you are keen on a 2 second hold for switching the engine off, make it ALWAYS need 2 seconds, even when the car is in Park. That would be decent interface design. You don't have two different ways of achieving the same function. Especially when the seldom used way is needed during a crisis.

The more I think about this the more Toyota disgust me. They really don't have the "go to guy" working there holding things together.
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 1501
Reg: 10-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 12:55 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Miles Baker wrote on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 12:32 pm:

If I was designing a mass market button start, I would either make it require a strong or deep enough press that accidental presses are not an option, or I would recess the button, or look for some other kind of control that turns a little like a key or something analogous to that. I would not have multiple ways of operating a momentary button. Not everyone is used to that. I wonder if in a panic situation even I would think "hey let's try holding the button down". Or if you are keen on a 2 second hold for switching the engine off, make it ALWAYS need 2 seconds, even when the car is in Park. That would be decent interface design. You don't have two different ways of achieving the same function. Especially when the seldom used way is needed during a crisis.




I think a longer press for turn off is completely reasonable buttons which use both long and short pressess have been around for over 20 years.

Exactly how it is implemented is important as you say the press should also be the same amount of time regardless of operating condition.

If Toyota disgust you, what about Ford, there was many many minutes attempting to shut down the car but they were unable to.

Until exactly what was possible in terms of neutral and shut down options is 100% confirmed it is only guess work but there appears to be enough cases plus the fine to confirm that this is a serious issue/stuff up on Toyotas part and they do need to pull there socks up.
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS

Posts: 2436
Reg: 08-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 05:37 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Until the cause of the Explorer incident becomes apparent, or a large number of such incidents start occurring, I'm not sure what to think of that one. Of course Ford have done other stuff that warrants disgust. The whole software/electronics industry is a pretty decent sized mess of poor quality workmanship.
Lucas Waterworth
Tinkerer
north island, nz
2.5tt auto

Posts: 49
Reg: 03-2010

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 06:16 pm, by:  Lucas Waterworth (Gadget666) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think a two pronged approach is necessary here. first, make it a legal requirement that the engine can be disengaged from the drive train (all motors, including electric), and that this can be done easily at any speed by the regular driver's controls, and that the engine can be switched off at any speed by the regular driver's controls.

the second is to make sure it is public knowledge that you either disengage or switch off the engine during a WOT occurence.

this "push and hold" stuff is nonsense, just mount the button somewhere that it will be nearly impossible to bump.
a system that cuts engine power when the brake and accelerator are depressed simultaneously, is a brilliant idea, as long as it can be disabled by the driver, but will default to on when the ignition is reset, much the same as the traction control in a soarer, so boy racers will not rip them out to do burnouts.
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS

Posts: 2437
Reg: 08-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 07:17 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Regarding your first paragraph it is already a legal requirement to make a safe product. Regarding your second paragraph everyone is already taught that.

Doing the job of the engineer through explicit legislation will only make the problem worse. Hold them up to the proper rules now and we've achieved what we need.
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 1557
Reg: 10-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, June 09, 2010 - 09:06 am, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

According to this test the car works fine and it is driver error.

The car will easily stop under WOT taking just 16 feet longer (1 car length) when under WOT from 70mph than if the car is in neutral.

In this test they were able to select neutral without issue even under WOT condition.

Stopping the car via the start stop button was possible but required a long 3.3 second press.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept
Aiden Cheese
TryHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30

Posts: 490
Reg: 09-2009

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, June 09, 2010 - 12:36 pm, by:  Aiden Cheese (Chillpen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Damian Ware wrote on Wednesday, June 09, 2010 - 09:06 am:

According to this test the car works fine and it is driver error.


But think about this: you don't have insurance and you accidently just T-Boned another car.

You realise "Oh i CAN blame this on toyota because i'll blame a sticky throttle!!!"

Why the hell wouldn't you.
Dan McColl
Goo Roo
Victoria (The Nazi State)
Active V8 and the Beast.

Posts: 2629
Reg: 07-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, June 09, 2010 - 08:32 pm, by:  Dan McColl (Hoon) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Aiden Cheese wrote on Wednesday, June 09, 2010 - 12:36 pm:

you don't have insurance


Simply means that you have weighed up the risks and decided to SELF INSURE.
Ali Saeed
Goo Roo
WA
UZZ31

Posts: 2452
Reg: 09-2007

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, June 09, 2010 - 08:44 pm, by:  Ali Saeed (Ali) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

lol so they recalled millions of cars for nothing :-)
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 1560
Reg: 10-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, June 09, 2010 - 09:13 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Aiden Cheese wrote on Wednesday, June 09, 2010 - 12:36 pm:

But think about this: you don't have insurance and you accidently just T-Boned another car.

You realise "Oh ••••• i CAN blame this on toyota because i'll blame a sticky throttle!!!"




How is this different to any other car you as the driver should be able to deal with this situation.

As per Dan's comments you are now self insured and liable if you are at fault.
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 1561
Reg: 10-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, June 09, 2010 - 09:17 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Ali Saeed wrote on Wednesday, June 09, 2010 - 08:44 pm:

lol so they recalled millions of cars for nothing




There is still a failure which needs to be fixed and it is a warranty issue.

Product recalls for issues like this are common.

The Australian built Camry's were recalled due to the handbrake not be tightened enough off the production line. Handbrake started to engauge at 7 clicks instead of 5 clicks or something to that effect.

Simple 5 minute adjustment of the cable but Toyota issued a recall.
Ali Saeed
Goo Roo
WA
UZZ31

Posts: 2455
Reg: 09-2007

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, June 10, 2010 - 12:49 am, by:  Ali Saeed (Ali) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

my remark was a sarcastic one aimed at Aiden's post
Aiden Cheese
DieHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30

Posts: 505
Reg: 09-2009

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, June 10, 2010 - 01:34 am, by:  Aiden Cheese (Chillpen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Dan McColl wrote on Wednesday, June 09, 2010 - 08:32 pm:

Simply means that you have weighed up the risks and decided to SELF INSURE.



Ali Saeed wrote on Wednesday, June 09, 2010 - 08:44 pm:

lol so they recalled millions of cars for nothing :-)



Damian Ware wrote on Wednesday, June 09, 2010 - 09:13 pm:


How is this different to any other car you as the driver should be able to deal with this situation.




What the hell? You still think that the people who have no insurance at all, aren't going to examine every possible avenue to not pay? That just because they don't have insurance they're going to say "Oh you know what, i've managed to not pay insurance for years its probably time for me to own up".

That's not how that works. You go to court you argue that the damages was only 50% your fault because while you were in the wrong they contributed significantly, there was a problem with the road signage and so on. It's just one more defence in a line of defences you'll use to help minimise the thousands of dollars you'd otherwise be liable for.

You think that people without insurance are filled with integrity? They're the same as people with insurance! The chances of integrity are the same as everyone else.

But I'm saying that for a short period there, anyone in a toyota who had an accident had a scapegoat they could use to not be liable for any action that resulted in an accident that they could blame on a sticky throttle.

I mean this issue was there for YEARS. According to the press this was for cars of a long and wide year range and before this all happened there weren't any claims of toyota at fault, but as soon as it broke news, suddenly there were stories every day!

Think about it.
Dan McColl
Goo Roo
Victoria (The Nazi State)
Active V8 and the Beast.

Posts: 2632
Reg: 07-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, June 10, 2010 - 06:27 pm, by:  Dan McColl (Hoon) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Aiden Cheese wrote on Thursday, June 10, 2010 - 01:34 am:

You think that people without insurance are filled with integrity?


No, I think they are idiots, and I have absolutely no sympathy for them whatsoever.
Lucas Waterworth
Tinkerer
north island, nz
2.5tt auto

Posts: 85
Reg: 03-2010

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Friday, June 11, 2010 - 12:26 pm, by:  Lucas Waterworth (Gadget666) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

AHEM!

I'm not paying $700 to insure a 2,000 dollar car, unless it is a legal requirement.

I am no idiot, I just don't like paying a ridiculous sum of money for the privelege of being a young male in a fast car.
Ali Saeed
Goo Roo
WA
UZZ31

Posts: 2471
Reg: 09-2007

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Friday, June 11, 2010 - 02:04 pm, by:  Ali Saeed (Ali) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

your not just paying 700 for your car. your paying for the car that you might hit..
Aiden Cheese
DieHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30

Posts: 517
Reg: 09-2009

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Saturday, June 12, 2010 - 04:42 am, by:  Aiden Cheese (Chillpen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Ali Saeed wrote on Friday, June 11, 2010 - 02:04 pm:

your not just paying 700 for your car. your paying for the car that you might hit..


For 700 you're probably not even covering your car. You're only covering their's i'd bet :-)

There really is 3 types of insurance

1) COMPULSORY THIRD PARTY - You don't have a choice. It's law. If you don't have this and you get found, its 800 from the cops or straight to magistrates court. Only covers personal injury pretty much.

2) Third party property - These are a few extra's. If you hit someone, now their car/house/shed etc are all covered when you make a mistake. You can opt to pay extra like fire and theft in case someone steals your car or burns it on the street.

3) Comprehensive insurance. This covers your car in the event that your car is stolen, burned, or even crashed by yourself. Usually they'll make this prohibitively expensive for bad cars and imports which are over 15 years old. That is, yearly + excess is worth 75% percent of your car. Why? Because 75% of people with dodgy old wrecks and speed cars crash them themselves. It's great for a new vehicle though. people with a new vehicle tend to try and avoid accidents and don't drive it for slips just to get to work.

Make sure you know what you're doing when you insure your car.
Ali Saeed
Goo Roo
WA
UZZ31

Posts: 2478
Reg: 09-2007

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Saturday, June 12, 2010 - 04:52 am, by:  Ali Saeed (Ali) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

im paying 1300 for full comp and im 21 with one accident last 3 years. i reckon if i dont have any accidents in the next 4 years, it could well be 700 for full comp.
Aiden Cheese
DieHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30

Posts: 527
Reg: 09-2009

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Saturday, June 12, 2010 - 05:52 am, by:  Aiden Cheese (Chillpen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes but that would make you 25 and lucas is what, 19 with a twin turbo vehicle?
Lucas Waterworth
Tinkerer
north island, nz
2.5tt auto

Posts: 86
Reg: 03-2010

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Saturday, June 12, 2010 - 04:36 pm, by:  Lucas Waterworth (Gadget666) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yup, 19 with a car that is a match for the SV6 commodores that the police drive here. I will insure it eventually, when I either find a insurance company that will offer a reasonable price, or it is made legal to have 3rd party.

just bear in mind if I make it to 25 without having a ding, which is when insurance premiums tend to drop, I could buy another two soarers.


Aiden Cheese wrote on Saturday, June 12, 2010 - 04:42 am:

Usually they'll make this prohibitively expensive for bad cars and imports which are over 15 years old. That is, yearly + excess is worth 75% percent of your car. Why? Because 75% of people with dodgy old wrecks and speed cars crash them themselves




it is about 75% for 3rd party and 100% for full cover for me, and I would consider myself part of the 25%. self insurance still looking stupid?
Aiden Cheese
DieHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30

Posts: 532
Reg: 09-2009

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Saturday, June 12, 2010 - 10:49 pm, by:  Aiden Cheese (Chillpen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Lucas Waterworth wrote on Saturday, June 12, 2010 - 04:36 pm:

self insurance still looking stupid?


I'm sorry, lets say you hit a AMG mercedes. You accidently hit it in the side, and stuffed its rails. It's a write off. How many tens of thousands of dollars do you have? 100 of them?

Why should he have to wear the cost just because you're a douche?
Dan McColl
Goo Roo
Victoria (The Nazi State)
Active V8 and the Beast.

Posts: 2636
Reg: 07-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Sunday, June 13, 2010 - 12:00 am, by:  Dan McColl (Hoon) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Lucas Waterworth wrote on Saturday, June 12, 2010 - 04:36 pm:

self insurance still looking stupid?


Yes it is.

The day you have a lapse in concentration for 5 seconds, pull out infront of an AMG, M, Ferrari, Lambo etc and total it, See how smart you feel then when you get to spend the rest of your life paying it off.

Or even something like a tyre blowout and you hit a ferrari because of it, See how much money you are saving then....
Callum Finch
Goo Roo
WA
Soarer TT & Corolla

Posts: 4715
Reg: 09-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Monday, June 14, 2010 - 09:38 am, by:  Callum Finch (Sigeneat) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Aiden Cheese wrote on Saturday, June 12, 2010 - 10:49 pm:

Why should he have to wear the cost just because you're a douche?


You dont even have to be a douche to be involved in an "unfair" accident.

ie, Driving down a hill on a main road. Little old lady pulls out infront of you and you T-bone or rear end her as there is not enough room or time to stop your car safely. In the eyes of the written law thats _YOUR_ fault. If you have insurance then your insurer will take it to court to get their cash back but if you dont then prepare for a saw behind.
Ali Saeed
Goo Roo
WA
UZZ31

Posts: 2489
Reg: 09-2007

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Monday, June 14, 2010 - 05:00 pm, by:  Ali Saeed (Ali) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Callum Finch wrote on Monday, June 14, 2010 - 09:38 am:

ie, Driving down a hill on a main road. Little old lady pulls out infront of you and you T-bone or rear end her as there is not enough room or time to stop your car safely. In the eyes of the written law thats _YOUR_ fault. If you have insurance then your insurer will take it to court to get their cash back but if you dont then prepare for a saw behind.




no i pulled out in front of a guy and he couldnt stop in time and i got 3 demerits for not giving way. in the eyes of the law its my fault.
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 1572
Reg: 10-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Monday, June 14, 2010 - 06:32 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Either way not having 3rd party insurance is stupid, it is typically very inexpensive and should be consider as the costs of owning a car just like registration.

Back on topic, from everything I have read I am yet to find any information which indicates there is no method to shut down the engine or select neutral.

From what I have read it appears as though in the event of the throttle being stuck at WOT there is the exact same options available to the driver as any other automatic car produced. Select neutral, simple and effective.

Why drivers in America were not able to do this is not clear and there is no information that suggests that the car was unable to be rendered safe if the driver took suitable action.
Callum Finch
Goo Roo
WA
Soarer TT & Corolla

Posts: 4717
Reg: 09-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 10:35 pm, by:  Callum Finch (Sigeneat) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Ali Saeed wrote on Monday, June 14, 2010 - 05:00 pm:

no i pulled out in front of a guy and he couldnt stop in time and i got 3 demerits for not giving way. in the eyes of the law its my fault.



Interesting, a good mate of mine was in the same situation (coming down a hill, tboned an old lady turning out) and copped the blame by the police.
Aiden Cheese
DieHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30

Posts: 560
Reg: 09-2009

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 11:19 pm, by:  Aiden Cheese (Chillpen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Callum Finch wrote on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 10:35 pm:

and copped the blame by the police.


Police don't do insurance. If there's a dispute you take it to court, or else you use witnesses reports to insurance companies. I'm surprised that unless the cops witnessed it they said anything at all.

  Administration Administration      Log Out Log Out Previous Previous      Next Next