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Mitchell Comfort
TryHard
QLD
TT

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Friday, August 06, 2010 - 01:23 pm, by:  Mitchell Comfort (Bombercomfort) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The internet filter is a issue very close to my heart and so I wanted to share the BIG news that came out today.

The Liberals have come out today and said they will scrap the Net Filter if they win the election.

Therefore please if you do not want the internet filter please, vote for the Coalition or at the very least have them as your second preference behind your green or independent vote. Don’t just follow the how to vote guide which will have ALP as the second preference!

Oh and I am not lying.

Here is the link to the announcement.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/australian-it/government/libs-filter-decision-applauded/story-fn4htb 9o-1225901980010

(In case you do not know, the ALP(Labour) are going to put in place an internet filter in 2012 which will apply to everyone and so you will not be able to go to any site on a black list however you will not know what is on that list and what you are missing out on. Only countries that control everything like China have this filter!)
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
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Friday, August 06, 2010 - 01:43 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isn't this is somewhat old news as the ALP proposed filter is a thing of the passed (at least for 2 years). Given the public backlash it would be unlikely ALP will try in two years time to reintroduce the filter.

This looks to me as nothing more than a late bid to try and grab votes by the Libs.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/conroy-shelves-net-filter-as-election-looms/story-e6frg6n6-1225 889985524
Leon Wright
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WA
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Friday, August 06, 2010 - 02:55 pm, by:  Leon Wright (Techman) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

But they'll also Kill the NBN
Peter Nitschke
Junk Filterer
South Australia
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Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 12:39 am, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From the article you refer to Damian:

"Senator Conroy insisted the government's resolve to introduce a mandatory internet filter had not changed."
Damian Ware
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Victoria
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Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 09:53 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes but the party has shelved it which is the important thing.

Conroy was pushing it even when the rest of the part was walking the other way. I wonder if they left Conroy to hang himself...
Steve Oleksak
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Qld
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Sunday, August 08, 2010 - 12:55 am, by:  Steve Oleksak (Soarin_high) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, the important thing is to ditch the filter for good - not postponing it so they can sneak it through later on when nobody is looking.

The fact that they decided that a mandatory internet filter was a good idea in the first place is worrying enough.
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
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Sunday, August 08, 2010 - 09:28 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I doubt ALP will try to reintroduce the filter but yes there is always that chance.

On the other hand Abbot bringing back work choices is a dead certainty.
Peter Nitschke
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South Australia
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Monday, August 09, 2010 - 01:35 am, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bias much? My bet is that you are 200% wrong - 100 on each point.

I don't get why some people have a need for this kind of blatant spin despite all evidence - including what you produced yourself - to the contrary.
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
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Monday, August 09, 2010 - 09:03 am, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Huh???

Conroy has made himself look like such an idiot he might even loose his seat. Being a Senator Vic voters can easily vote Conroy out by voting below the line and placing him last.
Peter Nitschke
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Monday, August 09, 2010 - 11:25 am, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You get Conroy saying "the government's resolve to introduce a mandatory internet filter had not changed", you then get Abbot saying "You can frame that: WorkChoices, dead, buried, cremated, that's my signature," yet your crystal ball says that both will in fact do the opposite at some point in the future.

Who will win the Melbourne Cup? Heheheh...
Damian Ware
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Victoria
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Monday, August 09, 2010 - 12:10 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Abbot said "the term Work Choices is dead" he very deliberately left the option open to be called something else. It was clear from a number of interviews that I have seen that he is not prepaired to tell the truth about Work Choices and if he would or wouldn't bring it back all be it under a different name and or a revised version.

As per above IMO from what I have seen and what most people I have spoken to are saying Conroy will be unlikely to survive the election. People that have never voted below the line are intending to fill out all 65 boxes to put Conroy last.

Do you actually believe because the term Work Choices is dead Abbot wont bring it back?

Do you believe Conroy likely retain his seat?
Mitchell Comfort
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Monday, August 09, 2010 - 12:28 pm, by:  Mitchell Comfort (Bombercomfort) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

workchoices or any part of it is dead... it would never get any changes through the green + alp + independant senate!
Damian Ware
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Monday, August 09, 2010 - 01:22 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is not impossible although unlikely that the Libs can gain control of the senate.

Work choices is a separate issue to the net filter and given the odds of its returning this issues real value is the further evidence of the lack of honest and transparancy in Abbott.
Steven Anderson
TryHard
NSW
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Monday, August 09, 2010 - 01:27 pm, by:  Steven Anderson (Cusscuss) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Greens oppose the filter and so do the libs, means a no go even if labor did want to put it through.

Libs said specifically said they wouldnt support labors filter policy and they would look into their own policy, so they can still introduce something similar if they felt like it.

Same with workchoices, it does stop any other right wing changes.

Labor say nothing on the filter, means they can try and do whatever the they want.



Common theme - all spin and non commital bullshit.
Steve Oleksak
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Qld
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Monday, August 09, 2010 - 09:18 pm, by:  Steve Oleksak (Soarin_high) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Coalition is unlikely to try anything Workchoices related for a long time as it is pure electoral poison. They lost government because of it, remember? In fact, looking at their election launch they had nothing really workplace related - maternity leave maybe, but that's about it.

The Internet Filter on the other hand is electorally untried. It only popped up on the radar after Labor won the last election. It doesn't have the same sort of electoral poison associated with it - and as such, is much more likely to be pushed by Labor if they win (compared to the Coalition with Workchoices). If there was an entire election campaign fought on the Internet Filter, and it caused the advocates of it to lose government, then as a policy it would be in the same place as Workchoices.
Damian Ware
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Tuesday, August 10, 2010 - 08:58 am, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Steve Oleksak wrote on Monday, August 09, 2010 - 09:18 pm:

The Coalition is unlikely to try anything Workchoices related for a long time as it is pure electoral poison. They lost government because of it, remember? In fact, looking at their election launch they had nothing really workplace related




The Libs lost the last election for many many reasons Work Choices was just the last straw.

If the Net filter is such an important topic that the entire party wants why is one Senator and only one Senator talking about it whilst the entire party looks the other way....
Gary Redman
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Tuesday, August 10, 2010 - 02:26 pm, by:  Gary Redman (Gary) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Whoever doesn't propose an ETS will get my vote - so it looks like Tony is the MAN (can't believe I am voting for him but the Labour and Greenies are so wrong with climate change and carbon that I have to save all of us from a great big new TAX
Leon Wright
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Tuesday, August 10, 2010 - 04:43 pm, by:  Leon Wright (Techman) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Can you tell me what about an ETS gets your vote? Reading about it, seems that it's more focused about the economics of the problem rather then helping the environment. I'm not sure I'd inclined to be in favour of a scheme that just creates an industry around trading the right produce pollution.
Steve Oleksak
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Tuesday, August 10, 2010 - 09:05 pm, by:  Steve Oleksak (Soarin_high) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Damian, I don't know what goes on inside the ALP's organisation. All I know is that Senator Conroy is the person they chose to represent IT/telecommunications, and he presents what I believe are very pro-censorship policies.

If there really is a big backlash within the ALP party room over the issue, then it is up to them to rectify it themselves. Remember, it is up to political parties to present an agreeable platform to us, the general public.

I disagree on the last election. Generally, when an incumbent government is defeated after several terms in government, people who were opponents of that incumbent government for the entire time will use the defeat to say that every policy decision taken over that time was roundly rejected by the electorate. Obviously it isn't the case most of the time, or else the incumbent government would never have been elected for more than one term.
Peter Nitschke
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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 12:11 am, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Damian Ware wrote on Tuesday, August 10, 2010 - 08:58 am:

If the Net filter is such an important topic that the entire party wants why is one Senator and only one Senator talking about it whilst the entire party looks the other way....


Still digging a hole to bury your "undecided" persona? :-)

Standard politicking. Let one guy take the heat for bad news. You never get the party leader promoting bad things. Not noticed that also with state politicians?

Let me ask you - why isn't the rest of the party saying that it won't happen?

Because.....
Damian Ware
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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 09:16 am, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To clarify in case I have a miss understanding.



Peter Nitschke wrote on Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 12:11 am:

Standard politicking. Let one guy take the heat for bad news. You never get the party leader promoting bad things. Not noticed that also with state politicians?




Sure they do but this is when they are from the lower house and they are in a position to create new laws/regulations.

Conroy is a Senator in the upper house, the upper houses job is to not make policy but to review policy passed on from the lower house.

Conroy is not able to make policy but he can review bills ect from the lower house and add his input. If he is elected again regardless of Labour or Liberal in the lower house he will still be able to do this.

Thence all we have is a a senator from the upper house that is shooting his mouth off about his own personal views. He is also doing a dam good job of making himself look like an idiot in the process and significantly reducing his chances of being reelected.
Peter Nitschke
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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 09:31 am, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey! You would make a good politician. You avoided a question I asked you, then you answered a question you wish I had asked - but didn't - instead.


Peter Nitschke wrote on Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 12:11 am:

Let me ask you - why isn't the rest of the party saying that it won't happen?




No offence, but right now you are looking like a political post hole digger! :-)

I don't think anyone could read that you aren't a totally committed hard nosed labor voter.
Damian Ware
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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 01:44 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Answering your question wasn't possible without further clarification.

Given you haven't disagreed with my comments regarding senators and there opinions/effect on policy I will assume you have agreed.



Peter Nitschke wrote on Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 12:11 am:

Let me ask you - why isn't the rest of the party saying that it won't happen?




I don't know exactly but I can think of quite a few possiblities. Firstly dispite senators opinions political parties often form there policies that oppose there own senators views.

Perhaps in this case ALP are simply ignoring a senator that is voicing his personal opinion and not the opinion of the party. Given he is a senator not creating policy his opinion isn't relevant.

Perhaps they want the filter as you are suggesting but don't want to take the heat from it as they will loose the election. If this is the case I think this is very low of the ALP and it will hurt them badly in the future. If they try to introduce the filter in the net term they will be voted out!!

Given the backlash and voiced opinions of just about every expert and CEO's of telcos are all speaking out against the filter not only about the principle of hidden data, not being effective as the RC information not in plain view on the internet anyway and often only accessible by peer to peer but also about Conroy's technical points not slowing down the internet ect, there has not been one person from the ALP or a technical person come to his defence or say yes what Conroy is proposing is possible. Please correct me if I am wrong

But just for a second assume ALP do introduce the filter or try to there will be a very quick and simple result at the next election. I can only hope if they do go down this path that they don't waste too much money trying to introduce it.

In terms of your views on who I vote for you are wrong, I have voted for ALP and Libs, I have voted different in both state and federal elections.

But given your comments in a number of threads such as the government debt it is clear that you are a Liberal voter and will always vote that way.
Peter Nitschke
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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 05:18 pm, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From Conroy's own website.

"Senator Conroy is the Minister for Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy and Deputy Leader of the Government in the Senate."

I guess Minister for Communications means he has no say in policy huh? By the same logic, his backing down and delaying for 2 years doesn't reflect the party view either, so we can assume they are still backing it?

In fact they are still backing it: Please read this from July 9th.
http://www.theage.com.au/technology/technology-news/conroy-backs-down-on-net-filters-20100709-10381. html

"But the government does not seem to be backing out of the deeply unpopular mandatory filtering policy altogether, as it has today announced a suite of transparency and accountability measures to address concerns about the scheme."

Damien, all I am doing, is challenging your ongoing spin.
Murray Lund
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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 05:28 pm, by:  Murray Lund (Murray) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ah yes, Pen is welded on conservative!! I love his definition of spin: it's anything that he doesn't agree with lol. (No offence intended Pen!! - just taking the piss).
By the way, if people are concerned about a net filter slowing down the internet, remember the Libs broadband plan offers speeds only 1/10th as fast as Labor's optic fibre plan.
Can anyone argue that current broadband speeds in Australia are anything more than a joke.
Damian Ware
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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 05:53 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I asked for clarification on anything that I may have been incorrect on you had the opertunity to post but didn't, why is that? I am not presenting spin purely presenting my understanding and what I make of the situation.

I may be incorrect in that a senator can create policy which is why I asked for clarification. The basis of why I was thinking what I was thinking is a member of the upper houses job is to review policies put forward by the lower house not create it.


Peter Nitschke wrote on Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 05:18 pm:

I guess Minister for Communications means he has no say in policy huh? By the same logic, his backing down and delaying for 2 years doesn't reflect the party view either, so we can assume they are still backing it?




Conroy is a senator, I will be filling out all 65 boxes and placing him last anyone in victoria has the opertunity to do so. IMO Conroy is not fit to be an elected representitive and has bad personal motives that are not in line with the Australian people.

If ALP agree with Conroy then why not support him or if they don't agree why not shut him down.

Yes it is all a little strange that there hasn't been a clear line drawn on this issue but I believe ALP will not continue with the internet filter as Australian people do not want this and they will vote them out to have this revoked if introduced at the first chance they get.
Damian Ware
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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 06:15 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Murray Lund wrote on Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 05:28 pm:

Can anyone argue that current broadband speeds in Australia are anything more than a joke.




I downloaded a 1gig file today which was 800kb/sec download speed. Internet connection ADSL II plus.

I have been to USA and China both with supposedly much faster internet.

The cable internet in china was really wow I was equate it to loading pages files ect similar to if it was on a local hard drive amazing download speed for videos ect. There regular internet available in most houses wasn't noticeably faster.

USA internet this was I must admit 5 years ago was not a great deal faster than what we have now. If I remember correctly dowload speeds were around the 800 to 1000kb/sec and 5 years ago we had around 300 to 500kb/sec download speed.

Again all this depends on the source.

For our new house we are looking at getting cable internet as ADSL II speed cannot be confirmed. Cable speeds available we were told in the sales pitch was a minimum of 20Mb/sec but could see speeds of 30Mb/sec.

I must say I think that would be fast enough and it is already available. NBN project is going to cost about $2000 per person and offer speeds of 100Mb/sec where as the cable installation was $200. 10 times the cost for 3 times the speed.

Yes we are well behind the rest of the world, and we need to do something I'm just not sure the money vs speed is justified.
Steve Oleksak
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Qld
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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 06:26 pm, by:  Steve Oleksak (Soarin_high) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Damian Ware wrote on Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 05:53 pm:

If ALP agree with Conroy then why not support him or if they don't agree why not shut him down.




He is supported by the ALP - that's why he is the ALP's Minister for the relevant policy areas.
Leon Wright
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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 08:28 pm, by:  Leon Wright (Techman) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Steve Oleksak wrote on Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 06:26 pm:



He is supported by the ALP - that's why he is the ALP's Minister for the relevant policy areas.


I was listening to Gillard on Triple J's hack today, she basically reeled off a summarised version of Conroy's spiel and quickly moved on to promoting the NBN. I just can't fathom why there is such strong support within the party when there is such a negative public opinion(of the filter).

I'm still undecided, but the last three years have highlighted the importance of the Independents and Minor party's in keeping the major parties in check. In particular a few of the Independents and the Greens have been very vocal against the filter.
Damian Ware
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Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 09:20 am, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Leon Wright wrote on Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 08:28 pm:

I was listening to Gillard on Triple J's hack today, she basically reeled off a summarised version of Conroy's spiel and quickly moved on to promoting the NBN. I just can't fathom why there is such strong support within the party when there is such a negative public opinion(of the filter).




That is a shame if Labour are supporting the filter which is appears they are this will decide my vote.
Leon Wright
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Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 10:52 am, by:  Leon Wright (Techman) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Greens are Anti Filter + Pro NBN.
Peter Nitschke
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Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 11:55 am, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Now we have the filter sorted out, what really bothers me is the Libs plan to sell off Medibank Private.

I am not aware of any sell off that has improved things for the people. Example - CBA used to keep the other banks relatively competitive, but once it was sold off, it just joined the fee/profit race and yesterday posted a record $5.6 billion profit.

I see the healthcare industry going the same way.

Private health insurance costs will go through the roof.

Or am I mis-understanding something?
Peter Nitschke
Junk Filterer
South Australia
UZZ30 UZZ31

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 12:01 pm, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Murray, once again you are wrong - see above post.

As I don't download porn movies, my ADSL2+ speed does everything I need.

I can't see a huge benefit in having a page that now loads in one second load in 1/10 second.

WTF is the common man doing that actually requires super high speed?

Better compression technology will also keep improving performance on existing transmission technology.

For the cost, I find it hard to see the value.
Leon Wright
Goo Roo
WA
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Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 01:25 pm, by:  Leon Wright (Techman) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Peter, maybe you can, but currently in this country you have to have luck on your side to get that. Being in a brand new house in a city can't even guarantee you'll get that.

The speed is irrelevant, why the heck are we still putting copper in the ground? It's ancient technology, it's like saying, hey steam works why the heck would the common man want to go faster than 5MPH?

The $43 Billion cost is spread out over a number of years, will provide a level playing field for all ISPs and provide an income stream in the long term.

We've just had to put in an expensive (think over $1k/month) 2 Mbps Serial link in one of our offices as Telstra had no spare copper and that's all optus could offer us. It's 2010 and our communications in this country are in a sad state of affairs.

Oh and Tony Smith has even less of a Clue than Stephen Conroy, that boggles my mind.
Steven Anderson
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NSW
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Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 03:59 pm, by:  Steven Anderson (Cusscuss) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Peter Nitschke wrote on Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 12:01 pm:

Murray, once again you are wrong - see above post.

As I don't download porn movies, my ADSL2+ speed does everything I need.

I can't see a huge benefit in having a page that now loads in one second load in 1/10 second.

WTF is the common man doing that actually requires super high speed?

Better compression technology will also keep improving performance on existing transmission technology.

For the cost, I find it hard to see the value.




Thats because you are lucky to be in a place thats within 1-2 km of an exchange.
Theres all the people who can't get any kind of DSL and if they want anything above 56k speeds they will pay through the arse for it.

Secondly, this isnt just for today, its to cover the next 50-100 years in the future. 100Mb is only the starting speed, it ramps up from there. The copper is aging and needs replacing soon anyway, it will be able to replace phone, internet and cable tv to 90% of Australia, not just the streets that its profitable to put a cable down.

Thirdly there are a ton of things currently that it can be used for, its a massive benefit for reigional education, you can even do things like live video streaming for regional medical diagnosis. Working from home will be easier and managing data costs will save money.
Having a government based infrastructure also means that every government institution thats currently paying money into private companies (thats your tax dollars) gets paid to the government (i.e its effectively free for the wholesale portion!) this is a huge saving in tax $.

Fourthly (didnt think it would go this long, ha) Its not just money sent down the drain. Its building infrastructure that is a money making asset that will pay itself off after a number of years and then can either turn a profit or reduce in wholesale costs (hopefuly a liberal government wont sell it off).

Lastly and most importantly, its the stuff that you or I can't think of over the next 50 years that is the reason for it. If someone explained the internet as it was 15 years ago most people would have seen to much of a use for it but look at how much of an effect it has had in only 15 years!

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