Soarer Central: Archive through August 13, 2010

Soarer Central Off-Topic Who will you be Voting for? Archive through August 13, 2010

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Mike Bradberry
Goo Roo
Queensland
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Saturday, July 24, 2010 - 08:16 am, by: Mike Bradberry (Halflife)

I like your argument Murray. It seems you have done some homework, unlike some.

Rob Rojo
Goo Roo
NSW
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Saturday, July 24, 2010 - 08:24 am, by: Rob Rojo (Rob_tt)

Australia does have a debt problem on a per capita basis compared uk japan etc and it's not just a result of higher expenditure welfare, it was also the billions of dollars pissed up the wall by the labor government with every scheme or plan they tried to execute.
When was the last time labor brought the budget back to a surplus?

Peter Nitschke
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South Australia
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Saturday, July 24, 2010 - 12:27 pm, by: Peter Nitschke (Pen)

Just because someone else has a bigger problem, it doesn't make your problem go away.

It amazes me that people actually seem to believe that relative is all that matters.

I personally owe less than some other people, does that mean I can ignore that debt that I do have, should I make it bigger so that I can be more like someone else?

What twaddle!

Peter Nitschke
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South Australia
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Saturday, July 24, 2010 - 12:30 pm, by: Peter Nitschke (Pen)

Keep in mind too, that the govt has promised to keep increasing the debt until 1013 when they finally plan to spend less than they earn - and that is based on dodgy figures. Getting into surplus is only the first small step on the path to reducing the very huge debt.

How much could be achieved with the money required to pay the interest each and every day?

Murray Lund
TryHard
NSW
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Saturday, July 24, 2010 - 12:57 pm, by: Murray Lund (Murray)

Anyone here have a housing or car loan - by Peter and Rob's way of thinking that must mean you are in a crisis situation and it must be due to bad management!!!
Ridiculous statement of course, and so is the argument that every government debt is necessarily bad. In a time of economic downturn it is a normal thing to have a deficit. The Reserve Bank says Australia's finances are very sound.
By the way, the normal way of measuring the relative debt of different countries is as a percentage of GDP (Gross Domestic Product), not per capita. Australia's debt is 6%, Japan, US etc are from memory something much closer to 100%. Japan is still in recession, the US only just emerged from recession, Australia never went into recession. The argument that Australia has a debt problem is entirely political. I have never read one economist who supported it.

Rob Rojo
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NSW
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Saturday, July 24, 2010 - 01:00 pm, by: Rob Rojo (Rob_tt)

Not at all but when you have a constantly escalating debt with no actual benefit to the Australian people or further assets to show for it then yes that is bad management.

Murray Lund
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NSW
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Saturday, July 24, 2010 - 04:37 pm, by: Murray Lund (Murray)

Rob, no one would deny there have been some clangers in government expenditure - some of the school hall funding has been poorly supervised by the department, but most of the deficit at the moment is not from expenditure programmes (schools, batts etc)- rather its from reduced tax revenue due to lower levels of economic activity.

If the government had responded to reduced tax revenue by reducing its spending, then that would have had added additional downward pressure on economic activity which would have taken us into recession. I suspect that in Australia, because we got off relatively lightly, we under-estimate the effect of recession in other countries.

I think you might also find that there are some significant assets to show for stimulus spending - probably 95+% of ceiling insulation is fine, new roads and port facilities have and are being built. But probably the biggest asset is one that's hard to quantify - the people who didn't lose their job with all the hardship attached to that and were able to keep working.

Peter Nitschke
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South Australia
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Saturday, July 24, 2010 - 05:38 pm, by: Peter Nitschke (Pen)

I guess it all depends who you want to apologise for.

Fact is we now have a ballooning debt that we didn't have before.

Spin is that we are getting value for it.

Murray Lund
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NSW
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Saturday, July 24, 2010 - 06:30 pm, by: Murray Lund (Murray)

Fact is Peter, its not a ballooning debt - to say its a ballooning debt is a political slogan and is the real spin.
PS: I don't think of myself as an apologist, but I do have an Economics Degree and I like people to understand how the economic system works.

Murray Lund
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Saturday, July 24, 2010 - 06:37 pm, by: Murray Lund (Murray)

Peter have a read of this article -I think it's pretty balanced: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/debt-bogeyman-a-good-scare-tactic--if-you-ignore-the-facts-20 100722-10mxp.html

Peter Nitschke
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Saturday, July 24, 2010 - 10:34 pm, by: Peter Nitschke (Pen)

Murray, I don't care for the politics or the spin, or how you choose to measure the debt to make it look smaller than it is.

Simple fact it, that I don't believe we are getting value for money.

And it is a HUGE debt.

I honestly don't know anyone personally that had their job saved by a lot of Aussie dollars going overseas, or into way overpriced school halls.

Yes, I went in to debt to buy my house, and again later to improve it, but I didn't just toss cash around recklessly. I knew what I could afford each time, then reduced spending on things that weren't necessary until I got the debt paid off.

I didn't spend like a drunken sailor and try to play pick pocket afterwards.

Murray Lund
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NSW
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Sunday, July 25, 2010 - 06:27 am, by: Murray Lund (Murray)

Pete, its a SMALL debt. Debt/GDP is the standard international measure of comparing the debt of various economies - the facts are Australia's debt/GDP is only 6% - a fraction of what the ratio is in the US, UK, major European economies. Just saying it's huge, doesn't make it so, unless one went to the Barnaby Joyce S}chool of Mathematics.

The national budget was always going to go into deficit in a world recession. The choice was to go into deficit and have a recession and high unemployment (as in UK, US, and Europe) or go into deficit and have low unemployment (as in Australia).

PS: I am in the navy, but I take no offence to your analogy re drunken sailors.

Peter Nitschke
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Sunday, July 25, 2010 - 04:58 pm, by: Peter Nitschke (Pen)

Murray, I don't mind a deficit. I just want value for money.

The comparable economies you mention are all just about bankrupt, so hardly a good role model for us.

6% in 3 years, so 12% in 6 years? Then if any of the major economies tanks - which is likely, our GDP drops, so the ratio gets bad really fast.

I guess then the apologists will go back to debt/capita in much the same way that "Global warming" became "climate change" when warming wasn't so obvious any more.

If we do get the double dip recession, what do we now have left in reserve?

Free steak knives?

PS. No offence was intended, nor am I aggro about this discussion, I just feel it's fair for the man in the street to have a view based on our own life experiences, namely, you don't spend more than you earn without proper planning and something to show for it.

Costa Tsimiklis
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Victoria
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Monday, July 26, 2010 - 01:34 am, by: Costa Tsimiklis (Driftshop)

My biggest issue is that the current fed and local government do not run a sound business case for their stupid spending. Everything should be run as a business if you are spending more than a few hundred million and especially over 1 billion.

The deficit does NOT need to be this high, and if it does, the funds should have been spent on sound business practices that will generate a great economic benefit. We are an aging country that is at the mercy of the government. There is no revolution, •••• we don't even have a proper say as people. The elected government can do what they like, with little protest or opposition. Everything is too smooth and tyrants and tycoons get away with anything they can afford.

Myki ticketing scam, 1.3 Billion for a train/tram/bus ticket system that will only save the end user (fare paying people) around $170 million in 10 years due to not buying the incorrect ticket by buying more than what they needed. The runing costs of this ticketing system will be at least $50-$100mil per year and there was nothing wrong with the old datafare 2000 metcard system, which NSW has just adopted as their new ticketing standard. LOL.

In addition, instead of copying SONY's Octopus system from Hong Kong, Vic government decided to make their own ticket system that simply fails in every sense of the word. 3 years over due, over budget and under performing on a world standard.

I'm hoping that there is a government change. The sad thing is that the BS that has been done and the money grabbing agenda will still continue with a government change, but at least with a Liberal government perhaps a bit of forethought will be given before spending and there could be a reduction of the deficit.

On a personal note, I just feel that the government is really poaching as much money as they can from people with indirect taxes (fines and penalties), when this is the hardest time for Australians that are employed or in business. We are in such a down turn from a retail perspective that many places are closing down. Dont believe the fudged big economics BS statistics - people are much poorer in a monetary way and in a lifestyle way now than they were before.

Whichever party you may choose... there's an old saying that you should remember:
Left Wing, Right Wing... Same Bird.

Gary Redman
TryHard
NSW
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Monday, July 26, 2010 - 11:30 am, by: Gary Redman (Gary)

I'll vote for whatever party DOESN'T bring in a Carbon Trading Scheme. This is the biggest load of crap that Australia doesn't need, and is only another GST masquarading as a nice big plan to make everyone feel really nice inside. We are hardly a blip on the pollution radar as far as world standards are concerned, and our coal fired powerstations are very efficient and not the bellowing black smoke monsters that some ill-informed greeny will try and tell you. Our power is generated cheaply and we shouldn't be expected to pay for all these increases that are not warranted, and imposing a further tax on virtually every object that requires power to be manufactured or delivered is a crime against all of us. So which party will stand up and say no ETS, ever! Neither of them because it is a new cash cow for them!

Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
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Monday, July 26, 2010 - 01:40 pm, by: Damian Ware (Frozenpod)

Costa Tsimiklis wrote on Monday, July 26, 2010 - 01:34 am:
In addition, instead of copying SONY's Octopus system from Hong Kong, Vic government decided to make their own ticket system that simply fails in every sense of the word. 3 years over due, over budget and under performing on a world standard.

That is only the beginning.

My cousin developed the system now used in Hong Kong and the UK about 10 years ago.

It was developed in the first instance for use by service employees who could have a pass card so that they didn't have to swipe a MET card often carrying equipment ect. Basic simple idea use RF and just get close to it and it can scan you charge you ect, it was built into the existing MET stalls and was still working.

What is more concerning we didn't even use our own design which is working perfectly and implemented for mass use as the Octopus and Oyster cards (UK and Hong Kong) and is now in the rest of china yet design another and •••• it up......

But this is somewhat a small •••• up compared with the water shortage and desal plant which is a whole other story.

Moving back to federal election, as has been somewhat started already I think we need a thread for each major issue/policy.

Ian Johnston
Goo Roo
South Australia
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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 - 12:08 pm, by: Ian Johnston (Ted)

Anyone thinking of voting G}reen, have a good look at their web site, and then tell me they are the way to go-NOT !!

or read the Adelaide Advertiser,Tuesdays this week. Is very worrying IMHO.

Mitchell Comfort
TryHard
QLD
TT

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 - 12:58 pm, by: Mitchell Comfort (Bombercomfort)

If anyone actually read there policies (the greens) and what they would do if they were in gov, nobody would ever vote for them. Just like nobody would have anything to do with PETA (if they knew what they really did and what they really stood for).

Btw one such example. No more pets! That makes the animal a slave and so is a big no no to them ;)

Gary Poloskei
DieHard
A.C.T
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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 - 01:31 pm, by: Gary Poloskei (Mikrucio)

I don't vote and have not for over 10 years.
It's waste of time.

Leon Wright
Goo Roo
WA
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Thursday, August 05, 2010 - 11:01 am, by: Leon Wright (Techman)

Gary Poloskei wrote on Wednesday, July 28, 2010 - 01:31 pm:
It's waste of time.

Edmond Burke wrote on , , :
"All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing."

I don't necessarily think it's a waste of time, and it's only something that affects us for a day once every 3 - 4 years. Where as a bad government can have long lasting effects.

I'm going for a below the line vote this year:
https://www.belowtheline.org.au

Murray Lund
TryHard
NSW
V8

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Thursday, August 05, 2010 - 08:57 pm, by: Murray Lund (Murray)

Gary,
People who line up to vote in Iraq do so willing to risk their lives from suicide bombers who want to take back their right to express their vote.
I wonder what they would make of the waste of your precious 15 minutes of time?

Mitchell Comfort
TryHard
QLD
TT

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Friday, August 06, 2010 - 01:24 pm, by: Mitchell Comfort (Bombercomfort)

Libs have my vote... they are going to get rid of the net filter!

+ many other issues.

Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
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Monday, August 09, 2010 - 01:46 pm, by: Damian Ware (Frozenpod)

Ok so I have not made a decision about who I will be voting for, normally I have made up my mind long before we get to an election but this time round I am stumped.

Neither party (ALP or Lib) or there leader is showing much in terms of long vision for the future of this country.

There is plenty of discussion of minor issues and short term promises but there isn't any longer term vision.

Libs have offered not much beyond targeting a few brownie point topics taking the opposite view (looks good to the uninformed) to ALP such as Net filter, boat people, debt but I am yet to see any plan or vision of what they would be intending to do other than not what ALP have done...

ALP well they haven't exactly done a great job and changing of leader isn't going to change much so I doubt they are going to do a good job if they are in for another term.

Sadly it appears as though the choice isn't who is best but the lesser of two evils.

The only good policy of either party which stands out is the Rail link but sadly ALP is only committing to a study viability.

The Melbourne to Sydney link has been proven time and time again to be viable and due to lack of high speed train has the most travel air plan rout in the world.

The environmental benefits of the newer high efficiency high speed train have made this a viable option for quite a few years

So this is a good point for ALP and assuming they do commit to the project the question is would they ever be able to pay for it or would they waste money ect and never get the job done?

Mike Triggs
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Western NSW
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Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 05:59 am, by: Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah)

The Conservatives (lib/Nat) have my vote. I don't think Labor's "stimulus spending" had much to do with keeping Aus out of recession, and in any case they spent money saved by previous Govt because Libs are better economic managers. We stayed out of recession because the economy was in basic good shape thanks to the Howard (a man I detest as a person) govt's good management.

Work Choices was a clanger on Conservatives last watch and I doubt they'll repeat the error if Abbott gets in. Not that I think he will, Gillard will squeak in and the country will go down the tubes for a few years.

The only good thing I can say about Gillard is that FINALLY there is some mention, debate even, about immigration and population (not that I am against immigration, but 300,000 per year.... we can't sustain those numbers).

Damian Ware
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Victoria
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Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 08:54 am, by: Damian Ware (Frozenpod)

Something to think about with the previous government.

New tax was introduced (GST) with promises to remove other taxes such as stamp duty. Not only did the governement received considerably more income but they failed to remove as promised some of the exsisting taxes and the big one is stamp duty as this tax due to the realestate boom has generated massive amounts of income.

They also cut services cut University funding leaving students with bills at the end of there course approximately double what it had been under HECS.

With all this additional money coming in and cut backs there was only a small amount of $$$ left over. After reading a few economist comments the what looks good money wise Howard government wasn't really all that good at all.

At the last election when they were certain to loose (and the ecomonic down turn was in motion) the Howard governement offered further tax cuts which Rudd had to match.

This insured that the level of debt would increase, it fed inflation and interest rates and place the country in a worse position. It was a clear setup most likely a well thought out plan which would result in the country being in a poorer position under a Labour government. The resulting action of this is most people continue to believe that Labour cannot manage money.

Can they are cant they is a tough question, I woulnd't had spent the money that way and I certainly wouldn't have done the $900 handout.

But I don't think the Libs did as well as they should have and I don't think Labour has done as bad as most people make out.

Peter Nitschke
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South Australia
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Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 12:05 pm, by: Peter Nitschke (Pen)

Damian, the stamp duty that was supposed to be removed is state based - it is the Labor states that backed out of a deal to drop the stamp duty.

Damian Ware
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Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 01:59 pm, by: Damian Ware (Frozenpod)

Yes but as I recall the states didn't drop the stamp duty as the federal government wasn't prepaired to pass on the money from the GST.

It was a somewhat heated discussion at the time with federal blaming the states and states blaming federal, I believe federal was passing on some additional funds but it was no where near enough to cover the lost revenue from stamp duty.

Steven Anderson
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NSW
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Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 03:36 pm, by: Steven Anderson (Cusscuss)

Howard government also sold off $50bn worth of money making assets to make their bottom line look good eg. airport, controlling half of comm bank, telstra etc and •••••• us over in the long term.

They also pork barreled for 7 years straight with tax cuts every year.

Not to mention that GST is a regressive tax, which shifts the burden onto the poorer end of the spectrum, classic right wing •••••••••••••

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regressive_tax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_tax

There is also of course the lie that he would "never ever" put in a GST, among the other lies that he managed throughout the time, like the nice one about interest rates always being lower under a liberal government.

Peter Nitschke
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Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 03:57 pm, by: Peter Nitschke (Pen)

Damian Ware wrote on Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 01:59 pm:
Yes but as I recall the states didn't drop the stamp duty as the federal government wasn't prepaired to pass on the money from the GST.

All GST goes to the states. It's not that hard to look any of this stuff up.

http://taxreview.treasury.gov.au/content/Paper.aspx?doc=html/publications/papers/report/section_10-0 6.htm

In addition to their own revenue sources, the States received around $40 billion in GST revenue from the Australian government. The GST is an Australian government tax, with all revenue provided to the States to compensate them for — among other things — the removal of a range of inefficient state taxes, the loss of revenue replacement payments (originally levied in place of franchise fees) and the loss of financial assistance grants. The Australian government distributes the GST to the States as an untied grant based on the principle of horizontal fiscal equalisation (HFE), which takes into account the relative revenue raising capacity and expenditure needs of each of the States (see Box 10.4).

Peter Nitschke
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Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 04:05 pm, by: Peter Nitschke (Pen)

Steven Anderson wrote on Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 03:36 pm:
Not to mention that GST is a regressive tax, which shifts the burden onto the poorer end of the spectrum, classic right wing •••••••••••••

Hang on.

GST basically replaced Sales Tax, and as I have used both systems, I think that GST is simpler and fairer. It isn't really a regressive tax as it's based on spending.

Who spends more, someone on $30k/annum or someone on $300k/annum? Guess who pays more GST then?

Damian Ware
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Victoria
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Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 05:22 pm, by: Damian Ware (Frozenpod)

As I remember was what in the media a the time the states were not being provided with enough money to replace the stamp duty income.

Sure they get the entire GST but clearly this wasn't enough to offset the looses from the stamp duty. Perhaps the funding was to come from another pool of money either way they didn't get enough.

As per my previous comments I don't remember the details but what was protrayed in the media at the time was that the states were blaming federal and federal were blaming states.

Peter Nitschke
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Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 06:02 pm, by: Peter Nitschke (Pen)

The states signed up to swap GST for various state taxes/duties, then reneged on the deal. "Deferred" was the commonly used term.

Why have some when you can have more?

Steven Anderson
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Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 06:09 pm, by: Steven Anderson (Cusscuss)

Peter Nitschke wrote on Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 04:05 pm:
Hang on.

GST basically replaced Sales Tax, and as I have used both systems, I think that GST is simpler and fairer. It isn't really a regressive tax as it's based on spending.

Who spends more, someone on $30k/annum or someone on $300k/annum? Guess who pays more GST then?

I agree that its simpler and as (by the sounds of it) a business owner/manager it would have been easier for you.

The old sales tax was regressive too, its just the GST is wider reaching. Howard initially wanted to make it across the board but they had to make concessions to make he democrats happy to actually be able to pass it.

For the 2nd question, its the person who buys more stuff, could be either one if the 300k person isnt spending any of that. Obviously the reality will be different, but it doesnt encourage spending, it encourages saving.

Ill give you an (albeit extreme, but shows why) example, what about 15k vs 150k where we replaced all the taxes with an entirely spending based tax? the 15k person would pay say 20% on everything they bought, so would the 150k person.

But if you put them on an income tax system, the 15k person would pay nothing as they are below the tax threshold and the 150k person would pay a lot more.

So thinking about typical right wing interests, its not real surprise that a GST was put in.

Peter Nitschke
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Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 09:59 pm, by: Peter Nitschke (Pen)

But that is total fantasy, as it makes totally untrue assumptions, such as - if there were no other tax.

Even so, how long would the $150k person be happy to do nothing with the money? Sooner or later he will want to spend it or invest it, and Bingo gets caught by the tax.

Not much point in having a bunch of notes under the mattress losing value against inflation.

Have you actually put much thought into this debate, or just living on inherited prejudice?

Did you see how fast Labor dismantled GST?

Steven Anderson
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NSW
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Friday, August 13, 2010 - 12:00 pm, by: Steven Anderson (Cusscuss)

Im not sure if its prejudice if its true, a sales tax/GST is a regressive tax, income tax is a progressive tax. Did you read the wiki links citing VAT as an example of a regressive tax?

The example was to show how/why they are called progressive/regressive taxes and what the result is.

Regressive taxes put a higher burden on lower income earners, thats just how it is.

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