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Steve Nolan
TryHard
NSW
SC400 Ltd (31)

Posts: 374
Reg: 07-2005

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Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 07:21 pm, by:  Steve Nolan (Hiddenvision) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yer Go Peter,, you stick it to Stephen.

Here we go again believing that our own values are shared by others we know nothing about.

The Problem is nothing to do with Muslims.

You will find there are plenty of Cristian Australians that will Rape, steal, plunder and fiddle with little kids, but then they are western values imposed on the others hey and should not be commented on.

It is the extremists or Fundementalists (however the spelling) and not the religion itself. And they are available in any flavor.

Malaysia is about 50% if not more Muslim and they do not have any troubles like what us western people see. And don't come back with they would not on their own door step.

In fact , and I have no proof as I have not studied the corran, but I have heard that even the general teachings of the faith does not lead people to go and blow people up or ram planes into buildings, and is not as sexually discrimitory as some of the western beliefs in it's raw form. But like everything people bend and manipulate things to suit their own needs.

The people here are very nice and would appear not to have a problem with westerners and infact they are more frequently very open and forthcomming with kindness for fellow humans.

Why is it we feel that the Western way is the best way ?

Perhaps misunderstanding is part of the norm.
I know I suffer from it from time to time..

David Vaughan
DieHard
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Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 07:35 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well you certainly misunderstood what Peter said.
Steve Nolan
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Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 07:50 pm, by:  Steve Nolan (Hiddenvision) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As I normally do I guess.
Peter Burrett
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Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 07:56 pm, by:  Peter Burrett (Burrett) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh dear, here we go again.... the basic problem is fear of the unknown .... this starts at a very basic autonomic response to the unexpected and unknown ..... we respond to the scare movies because they present unexpected images that cause us to have the "fight or flight" response... if we don't make conscious efforts to recognise that our autonomic response is culturally unacceptable, then we end up in Cronulla.... the fundamental issue is an educational one ..... I don't think either of the aggressive "sides" (and what a s**t term that is) is going to demonstrate a very high SAT score.... that's, in part, due to socio-economic factors, but also to the presence or absence of a moderating and accepting culture. For as long as we welcome multi-culturalism (and I do) and we fail to recognise the basic need to hold dear the culture of the origins (of all Australians) then we will have tensions in the red- brown-neck part of our society. I think that to the extent that the Federal Government has FAILED to exclude from the "possible" terrorist stereotype all of those Australians who are honest, loyal citizens (and just might happen to be, or look likely to be, of Middle Eastern, or, Allah forfend, even more a bit Asiatic or whatever), they have failed our general community.

A few years ago, my young son was at a regular event at his primary school in Canberra. It was an end-of-year event and it had all of the age groups strutting their stuff in song and dance.

The school was fortunate to have a wide catchment of cultures and backgrounds and races. We had a large community of young hopefuls, from all possible origins singing "We are one, and we are many...."

I had serious tears in my eyes....

so tell me, what's the fix? I think it lies with education, family and public assertion of our national identity..... bring back the ads
Peter Burrett
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Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 07:58 pm, by:  Peter Burrett (Burrett) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

David, thanks, but you are an analyst.... not (yet) a reactionary.... so perish us all
Stephen Hille
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WA
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Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 09:07 pm, by:  Stephen Hille (9zero) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am still trying to put together the connection between why your lot are talking about Terrorists and what the hell that has to do with some Leb's trying to "claim" a beach and beat up some lifegaurds?
Steve Nolan
TryHard
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Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 09:23 pm, by:  Steve Nolan (Hiddenvision) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

On ya Pete,
Sorry if I did misunderstand you, but like I said i do that alot.

I think the only way is to teach the younger generation and perhaps the older one too, a little respect for others in the world. It should be a subject just like Math and english.

Like you said the unknown is frightful and many people will prefer to hide away rather than tackle the situation head on. Govenments just seem to be getting it wrong all over the world with little attention paid to situations and events played out on the other side of the waters. It has to start at home and the parents should take a much more active role in educating their off spring or stop having them. This may help and would save the govenments (local or federal) having to introduce silly LAWS to protect the youth. Technology is supposed to give us greater options and it seems a waste if we are then banned from using it. The Taking pictures of Minors in public places is one that sticks in my mind and I must say was amazed to hear of the restrictions in certain areas. The other case that they want to ban devices because they could be used for the transmitting of Video images to the younger generation like the new MP4 players with wifi. Personally I think the youth need to be tought what is right and wrong rather than impose blanket restrictions and bans. Give the people the ability to decide for themselfs and they may make the right choice on their own. Keep them in the dark and ban it and on the whole they will want to discover but without the education and understanding of right and wrong.

But to sound cynical again I think there is little hope and where there is money there will be wrong decisions and bias towards those that want the power.
Mustafa Akgul
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Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 10:30 pm, by:  Mustafa Akgul (Muzzy) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hmm anyone know how to take the battery out of a soarer?
Peter Nitschke
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Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 11:34 pm, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Park it in Cronulla?
Peter Burrett
TryHard
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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 12:31 am, by:  Peter Burrett (Burrett) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Stephen Hille wrote on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 09:07 pm:

I am still trying to put together the connection between why your lot are talking about Terrorists and what the hell that has to do with some Leb's trying to "claim" a beach and beat up some lifegaurds?




Stephen, I don't think I've used the "T" word in any of my posts, except to refer to the "stereotype", so what's the problem with what I've posted?
Stephen Hille
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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 01:23 am, by:  Stephen Hille (9zero) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not getting stuck into you Peter or anyone else, some of the idea's behind a few of the posts here have been suggesting towards this and I just think its becoming the latest excuse - this happened because of the Americans or because of the Terrorists.

In my (not very educated on this subject) view it seems as simple as this bunch of dudes - no matter where they are from, trying to "own" a part of the beach when in reality it belongs to everyone - then beating up a lifeguard. I don't see why the people at Cronulla beach need to bring the fact that these guys are Lebs or whatever else into it.

The way that they are beating up on all of the 'middle eastern' type dudes is completely softcock - they should have beaten the absolute out of the offenders and left them on the sand and there would be no more problem.

I wasn't saying that Muslims and Americans are different - I was saying that it seems that by and large Muslims and Americans clash somewhat - of course there are a lot of Muslim Americans and thats great, it goes even deeper than this though its more about the 2 major religions of each country that clash. I'm not going to go into this though - and yes I certainly wouldnt take Muhammad Ali on as I am sure he could deck me and you and probably at the same time haha.

Anyhow we are all allowed our opinions - you type yours out, I type mine out, Steve Nolan types his out which is usually getting stuck into me about something I have said - an opinion I have shared which I am entitled too as he is and everyone else here.
Duy Le
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NSW
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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 08:17 am, by:  Duy Le (Sor44h) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

umm did any ones Soarer get damaged??
Damien Smith
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NSW
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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 09:20 am, by:  Damien Smith (Damien) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Seems to me that it's basically a turf war... specific religion/race etc really don't have much to do with it. It's interesting to see that some Melbournians see Sydney as being segregated but I think there is a simple reason for this. Unlike Melbourne which is basically a huge grid allowing easy travel in any direction, Sydney is criss-crossed with barriers such as the harbour, rivers, gorges, national parks, busy main roads, etc which makes it more difficult to travel outside of your own area. Plus public transport really only funnels everyone towards the city, not across town. If you grow up moving in a small area it's natural to become protective of it.

I'm sure some of you have seen the movie Puberty Blues which was set in Cronulla in the 70's. In the movie (which was apparently very close to real life) the beach fights were between the surfers and the clubbies (lifesavers)... except the clubbies looked like Freddie Mercury and the fight mainly consisted of a few punches and giving the clubbies wedgies :-)
Tom Kneebone
Tinkerer
WA
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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 11:18 am, by:  Tom Kneebone (Tomk) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Peter Burrett wrote on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 07:56 pm:

the basic problem is fear of the unknown .



Peter I don't think it's that deep in this situation, In my opinion it's tribal, humans are definitely social/tribal beings and the problem with this is the offensive/ defensive response. Also tribal loyalties can be many and fluid in today's society. For example the last TT V8 which is better thread resulted in a comment attacking TT's as not really being sports cars. True in some degree but the comment was made to offend members of the non V8 faction of the soarer tribe( the reason this stuck in my memory was how quick loyalties change when you feel threatened in some way. The interesting thing would have been to interject a comment denouncing all soarers over say a monaro, I can picture the majority response now and TT/V8 issues would become irrelevant). Social acceptance is extremely important to us (everyone wants to be loved) and we form associations on almost any grounds to facilitate groupings of acceptance. One intolerant act or word by an individual can cause a tribal defensive response and the situation goes out of control exponentially. The spark does not even have to come form one of the tribes involved. Instinctive responses are the problem, enlightened response is the answer. Unfortunately for those who sit back and ask WTF? it is just another lesson in futility at this point in time. We are not as evolved as we think.
Steve Nolan
TryHard
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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 01:27 pm, by:  Steve Nolan (Hiddenvision) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Stephen I have never stuck into you about things you have said..

Or have I ?
David Vaughan
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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 01:43 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So, Tom, you agree completely with Peter then .

There is no magical independent instinct which makes the reaction, there is a little fear, or a lot of fear, usually not conscious to the participant. Whacking on an "instinctive" label avoids the next question, which is the one to which Peter went.
Daniel Czechowski
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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 01:50 pm, by:  Daniel Czechowski (Dan) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let me say up front I don't mean to ignite further angry responses or offend anyone but... Social image is something that can be easily changed these days. I reckon the media has a lot to do with it actually. From what has been happenning in the world in the last couple of years, people's perceptions about what, and specifically who a terrorist is, is very obvious. Without spelling it out, whenever the media sees that hey, this person happens to be of certain appearance, or religion, there's a label attached. It is then repeated and pointed out in every reference to them as to what they are, to sensationilise the story. Now I'm not on either side, I believe in good human spirit. There are bad apples among all of us, however we have to look at this whole issue from a wider angle here.
If they were all white guys doing all this stuff, they would certainly be called 'a mob of people' without a further description as to what appearance they are. Now picture this, you're the reporter, you want to make this story stand out, and maybe hit that certain spot people have had on their mind for the past 5 years, muslims and terrorism. You see they are mostly middle eastern guys there, hey, there you go, u will try very hard to emphisize the fact that they are lebanese or whatever. The ground for that is there. He doesnt have to prove it. The reporter knows what people think about this stuff in general already. And that's where that people's mindset has changed. Ok, I'm not saying that terrorism is 100% not related to islam, hey, it is very coincidental right... like i said there are bad apples out there among all of us. But after being fed all that stuff, i think people's attitudes and perceptions have changed to a point where any ignorant Joe Blow will call a muslim a terrorist. Of course that is not right. I havent read Koran but apparently it is meant to be a peaceful religion, and of course the big majority are very innocent. But on another hand, I can't see how these extremists can so (apparently) misinterpret the koran where they see it as their spiritual mission to wage war and terror on innocent people. They must have had lawyers write it back in the old days or something hehehhe. I've heard this old saying somewhere, can't remember how it went but something like this... "it is better to be perceived to do something and do nothing, then do something and be perceived to do nothing".

Anyway... hmmmm. Where was I heading with this now.... Right. All I wanted to say after reading this thread is I'm sure those mobs are not related to terrorism in any way. I dunno why it was even mentioned
Steve Nolan
TryHard
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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 02:26 pm, by:  Steve Nolan (Hiddenvision) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Someone talked about a Flash VW and it got out of control from there I think.
Tom Kneebone
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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 06:17 pm, by:  Tom Kneebone (Tomk) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree almost completely with Peter but feel that fear of the unknown, a deeply personal thing, is not what would generate mob violence in this situation. More likely fear of being alone or fear of persecution or of being outcast. It wasn't mob violence against shrek.

Validity of this debate requires that
fear of the unknown be defined , instinctive as opposed to autonomic responses need to be defined .

We may be saying the same thing from different points of reference.

The whole issue is moot anyway as the problems in Sydney will not be solved here.
David Vaughan
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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 07:43 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

fear of the unknown, a deeply personal thing


Cultural guides put it together into common and shared responses; the basis of tribalism -- 'these are like me (and vice versa) and those others may be dangerous'.


quote:

instinctive as opposed to autonomic responses need to be defined .

We may be saying the same thing from different points of reference


I had feared that you might have a simplistic understanding of instinct (many people do) but that looks not to be the case, so we may indeed by saying very similar things differently.

No problems are solved but we can learn to avoid a response which is no better than the problem. I think that is worthwhile.
Tom Kneebone
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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 11:11 pm, by:  Tom Kneebone (Tomk) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes it is a worthwhile thing if we can make someone more volatile than ourselves think before they respond.

I can see how the fear of the unknown ties into the tribalism thing now, I was not actually considering the more primitive response.

quote:
those others may be dangerous

When you consider "dangerous" to cover any threat to a persons state of well being, physical, emotional or mental, it really does cover everything.
Dragan Vidic
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Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 03:35 am, by:  Dragan Vidic (Soarer_ttt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good to see so many experts in the field....some of u guys should go for Howard's job....u seem to know a lot more then he does
Peter Burrett
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Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 05:57 am, by:  Peter Burrett (Burrett) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dragan, little Johnnie pretends that these issues don't exist..... I wouldn't have his job for quids, but if I did, I wouldn't be able to discuss these issues on the forum
David Vaughan
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Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 07:41 am, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Becoming Prime Minister is a function of a very high level of political ability and does not require expertise in all or even many other fields. Much of the work of government actually entails taking advice from experts and repackaging it for public acceptance. Political agendae and biasses of the governing party affect to what advice the party or leader actually listens. So, Dragan, I see no impediment to immodestly sharing our views on the topic rather than nodding acquiescence to whatever the current Prime Minister or Premier says.
Mustafa Akgul
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Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 08:36 pm, by:  Mustafa Akgul (Muzzy) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ha ha ha bad ass muslims everywere causing trouble..:-)

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