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Mike Triggs
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Western NSW
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Wednesday, March 28, 2012 - 02:44 pm, by:  Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does anyone here know anything about Wharfedale speakers? I have a pair of 510s which have blown tweeters, and aside from the issue of finding new 4 Ohm tweeters with 100mm faceplates, I can't open the cabinets to get the old speakers out! There are no screws, hidden or otherwise, anywhere on the cabinets and the drivers appear to be glued in. Even the sockets for the grilles appear to have only acoustic fill at the bottom when I insert a screwdriver.

Googling gives umpteen stories of blown tweeters, and reviews of Wharfedales, but no useful info for my model.

Any help gratefully received, I'm at my wits end on these bl**dy things.
Aaron Casey
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Wednesday, March 28, 2012 - 05:28 pm, by:  Aaron Casey (Blownminiturbo) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a blown wharfdale tweeter too started looking into it and found a decent set off a mate for cheap so still have my blown ones so if you find a repairer i wouldnt mind getting a new tweeter haha
Tai Johnsen
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Wednesday, March 28, 2012 - 05:35 pm, by:  Tai Johnsen (Privatejohnsen) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have no answers, only suggestions..

http://www.vaf.com.au/

:-)

I bought a set of DC-X's about 12 years ago and they are still going strong.. The bonus is you get to assemble them if you want..
Mike Triggs
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Wednesday, March 28, 2012 - 06:04 pm, by:  Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Aaron Casey wrote on Wednesday, March 28, 2012 - 05:28 pm:

I have a blown wharfdale tweeter too started looking into it and found a decent set off a mate for cheap so still have my blown ones so if you find a repairer i wouldnt mind getting a new tweeter haha




I saw some Wharfedale tweeters on Ebay, but given my research into W's tweeters, didn't want to trust them... the woofers/midranges are fine. I've found some candidates for replacements, as I mentioned earlier, it's amazing how few 4 Ohm 100mm tweeters there are. Most are 8 Ohm. Many are 102 0r 104mm. If they're in the US, the postage is ludicrous. At the moment, though, I just can't figure out how to get the old ones out!
Mike Triggs
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Wednesday, March 28, 2012 - 06:05 pm, by:  Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Tai Johnsen wrote on Wednesday, March 28, 2012 - 05:35 pm:

I have no answers, only suggestions..

http://www.vaf.com.au/




They look superb, Tai, and now doubt sound as good as they look. Probably, no certainly, way outside my price range!
Tai Johnsen
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Wednesday, March 28, 2012 - 06:33 pm, by:  Tai Johnsen (Privatejohnsen) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Best bet is to bust the tweeter off and see what specs it is..

Specifically the sensitivity, impedance and power handling (which since they are blowing might be too little) ..

These are 6 ohms (impedance) and not very efficient (sensitivity) at 89dB (how much sound you get out of them at 1 meter with 1 watt of power)

http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=CT2020&form=CAT2&SUBCATID=1008#4

Vifa are excellent drivers..

The impedance mis-match will probably be un-noticable as it changes with the frequency anyway.. Worst case you could add a resistor inline if it's too "bright" or use the treble knob to take it up or down a notch..
Tai Johnsen
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Wednesday, March 28, 2012 - 06:38 pm, by:  Tai Johnsen (Privatejohnsen) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, and I reckon silk domes give the nicest sound..

But that is purely subjective..

Cheap, pretty low power handling & 8 ohms

http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=CT2005&form=CAT2&SUBCATID=1008#4

(keep in mind your speakers may be 8 ohms and wired in parrallel?)
Damian Ware
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Wednesday, March 28, 2012 - 08:36 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Both those vifa tweeter are to be frank crappy. Vifa do make awesome tweeters the XT25 direct fit for D25AG listed above 103mm faceplate diameter and is a very good tweeter. They are only about $30 more than the D25AG.

I don't know the 510's off hand but most drivers are include wharfdales are screwed in but some speakers have the drivers glue in.

If glued in they can be a bitch to get out without and there will almost always be some level of cosmetic damage when removing them.

As per Tai's suggestion if you can remove the driver post up the specs/dimensions we can probably point you in the right direction for a very good cheap replacement.

PS if you are looking for new cheap speakers as an alternative the jaycar speaker kit is a descent design (copy of quality speakers) but uses crap tweeters and not the best drivers. Upgrading the tweeter alone to the XT25 turns them into something fairly decent and very good value for money.
Mike Triggs
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Wednesday, March 28, 2012 - 10:15 pm, by:  Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The tweeters are 4 Ohm (at least, the specs on the back have "nominal impedance 4 Ohm", that presumably applies to all the speakers since there are 3). I have found a few replacements available, including Audax, some Mavin (US) and Peerless, as well as these:

http://www.essentialaudio.com.au/contents/en-us/d287_SB_Acoustics_Tweeters.html

and these, although they're in China, slightly bigger than 100mm, and 6 Ohm:
http://www.aliexpress.com/fm-store/705243/210789352-383493243/pair-SUPER-copper-Beryllium-dome-KO-XT 25.html




also these, also slightly bigger than 100mm:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/260988757515?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
Mike Triggs
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Wednesday, March 28, 2012 - 10:35 pm, by:  Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Damian Ware wrote on Wednesday, March 28, 2012 - 08:36 pm:

I don't know the 510's off hand but most drivers are include wharfdales are screwed in but some speakers have the drivers glue in.




The 510s I bought in 1989, but apparently they're a current model as I found a recent review of them.

The drivers (but not the tweeter) have some slots around the circumference which look like they might take a special tool which locks in to rotate them. Needless to say, it would be different for each diameter driver, if that's the case.

I checked the second cabinet today, the drivers on that speaker "hang out" a bit more than the other cabinet, in that the alloy ring in which the drivers sit are proud of the cabinet (typical British quality control, I'd never noticed this before). Doesn't make them any easier to get out, and I still have to work on the assumption that I can get at the tweeter from the back or rather side, should by some miracle I get the 200mm woofer out!

The sensitivity of each cabinet (i.e. not necessarily the tweeter alone) is 89 dB. The power range, again ea. cabinet, is 25-200W (max). I don't know whether the tweeters have blown due to overdriving (amp is an NEC A-1500 of similar age to the speakers) or damage in one of my many moves- the little wire cage over the tweeter domes are squashed in, as they are a little proud of the cabinet surface, and so are the tweeter domes, which are 19mm, incidentally. I had never thought to tell removalists to be careful, in fact I hadn't noticed the damage until recently, you can't see the mesh covers "pushed in" until the grilles are removed.
Damian Ware
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Wednesday, March 28, 2012 - 11:08 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Given you have had them since 1989 I assume you are happy in which case if they are still available new or at least recently perhaps you can get brand new original tweeters.

The new tweeters may also have clues as to how to remove them.
Mike Triggs
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Wednesday, March 28, 2012 - 11:50 pm, by:  Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Damian Ware wrote on Wednesday, March 28, 2012 - 11:08 pm:

Given you have had them since 1989 I assume you are happy in which case if they are still available new or at least recently perhaps you can get brand new original tweeters.

The new tweeters may also have clues as to how to remove them.




Good points, however, Wharfedale tweeters don't seem to last very long (given the large number of "how do I fix my Wharfedale tweeter" posts on the web!)and they're not exactly cheap.

You're right that they're current or nearly so, but frankly, I'd rather go for something else, given W's strengths are not in the tweeter arena
Tai Johnsen
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Thursday, March 29, 2012 - 04:57 pm, by:  Tai Johnsen (Privatejohnsen) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Mike Triggs wrote on Wednesday, March 28, 2012 - 10:15 pm:

nominal impedance 4 Ohm", that presumably applies to all the speakers since there are 3




Yeah, that may not be the case.. Best to look before you buy a replacement IMO

Those XT25's look pretty cool!

As far as I know, Peerless are a reputable brand too..
Mike Triggs
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Thursday, March 29, 2012 - 05:46 pm, by:  Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Tai Johnsen wrote on Thursday, March 29, 2012 - 04:57 pm:


Yeah, that may not be the case.. Best to look before you buy a replacement IMO




Good point!
Damian Ware
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Saturday, March 31, 2012 - 12:15 am, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Many brands do offer quality drivers the HSD tweeter is also quite nice.

Pull out the tweeter and then you will know what size/space there is available and hopefully we can find the specs on the original.
Mike Triggs
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Saturday, March 31, 2012 - 08:09 am, by:  Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Damian Ware wrote on Saturday, March 31, 2012 - 12:15 am:

Pull out the tweeter




That's the problem, Damian, I can't! I found a site where the bloke had pulled the crap tweeters (which looked identical to mine) from a pair of 505s which are my speakers without the mids, but he didn't explain how he got them out. The new Seas were slightly larger than the Wharfedales, too.
Damian Ware
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Saturday, March 31, 2012 - 08:52 am, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Are there any covering rings around the bass or mid drivers.

There are often rings covering the screws purely for cosmetic reasons.

If they are the speakers I am thinking of I think they had silver ring around the drivers.
Mike Triggs
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Saturday, March 31, 2012 - 09:08 am, by:  Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Damian Ware wrote on Saturday, March 31, 2012 - 08:52 am:

If they are the speakers I am thinking of I think they had silver ring around the drivers.




Exactly, Damian. There are silver rings around the perimeter of the tweets, woofers and mids. Here's a pic of a 505, mine look the same except for addition of a mid (and taller, obviously). My tweeter appears similar to this one, except that it had a dark dome with a fine mesh cover, the faceplate is identical.

Upload
Damian Ware
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Saturday, March 31, 2012 - 09:37 am, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I haven't pulled these apart before but in that pic the silver ring appears to be under the drivers which is odd.

The drivers might have a twist locking mechanism and the silver ring might be a basket which is screwed or glued into the cabinet.
Mike Triggs
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Saturday, March 31, 2012 - 09:50 am, by:  Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree. The silver rings aren't at the same depth for each driver, and on one speaker aren't even inserted to be level all round. You can see on the woofer some small slots- my first thought on seeing these is that they looked like they took a ring with matching teeth, which would imply they require a special tool for each diameter driver. Which makes things very complicated!
Damian Ware
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Saturday, March 31, 2012 - 11:01 am, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If that is the case then I'm sure you could carefully remove it with two people and suitable sized screw drivers.
Dan McColl
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Saturday, March 31, 2012 - 07:38 pm, by:  Dan McColl (Hoon) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pull the back off the housing.
Mike Triggs
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Sunday, April 01, 2012 - 09:52 am, by:  Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Dan McColl wrote on Saturday, March 31, 2012 - 07:38 pm:

Pull the back off the housing.




Presuming you mean the back of the cabinet? It's um... glued in place!
Mike Triggs
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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 - 09:47 pm, by:  Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Through sheer luck, I managed to get the tweeter out of the big cabinet today. My tweeter is the same as that in the pic above- the "nuclear symbol" turned out to be just a round piece of plastic stuck on with glue over the faceplate. I poked around with my trusty old Swiss army knife, and it began to lift off!

Anyway, it's out now, and I'm flummoxed again, because dear old Mr Wharfedale has put no driver info on the speaker. There's only a paper sticker with lots of letters and numbers, one of which turned out to be the model number, but I can find no specs anywhere. I might just take a punt and get a 6 Ohm tweeter, it'll move the crossover point somewhat, but if it's an 8 Ohm driver (although the system has 4 Ohm on the cabinet) and I put a 4 Ohm in, that'd be pretty bad.

To cap off the Wharfedale miseries, one of the tweeters on my Wharfdale bookshelves started sounding crook so pulled grille off, only to find oily rusty fluid leaking out (the ferrofluid) so now I'm looking for an 8 Ohm truncated faceplate tweeter. I had hoped to connect the bookshelves to our new TV, won't be happening yet, with one out of 4 speakers actually functioning...
Mike Triggs
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Thursday, April 12, 2012 - 07:20 pm, by:  Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Today, I found the magnet from the bookshelf tweeter at the bottom of the cabinet, it had fallen off! I've never heard of such a thing.
Matthew Sharpe
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Friday, April 13, 2012 - 06:13 am, by:  Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quality!
Damian Ware
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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 - 02:16 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Go with a 4 ohm XT25,(assuming it fits in the hole) if you need to change the resistance unlikely you can do so by adding a resistor later on.
Mike Triggs
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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 - 07:58 pm, by:  Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Damian Ware wrote on Tuesday, April 17, 2012 - 02:16 pm:

Go with a 4 ohm XT25,(assuming it fits in the hole) if you need to change the resistance unlikely you can do so by adding a resistor later on




I assume that's a Vifa tweeter, Damian? I am having trouble finding one in right Ohms/ size as since the faceplate's out the hole is now 106mm. Obviously I can go a little smaller, but not bigger.
Damian Ware
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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 - 09:54 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is probably what you want.

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/ring-radiator-tweeters/vifa-xt25bg60-04-vifa-ring-dome-tweeter- double-magnet-4-ohm/

But there is a range of options here.

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/ring-radiator-tweeters/
Mike Triggs
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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 - 05:36 pm, by:  Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The first one is a ripper, not cheap (well, they're reasonable, the postage's the killer:-))

Here's another (cheaper) alternative, slightly too big, but still a Vifa, and reasonable specs):
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/390311224951?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
Damian Ware
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Thursday, April 19, 2012 - 05:29 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Plenty of XT25 variations, even though they have the same basic design the all sound different.

I should add there are also plenty of fakes around.
Mike Triggs
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Friday, April 27, 2012 - 09:16 pm, by:  Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I bought the Ebay speakers (the swivelling Vifas, not that I need the swivel feature). Now to fit them, once they arrive from US. The faceplate is slightly bigger than the hole (by about 1.5-2mm) so now have to figure out how to enlarge a circle in MDF by a small amount, neatly.

Managed to fit some new tweeters in my bookshelf Wharfedales, as well. They were a tad small so made up a filler with MDF. The original holes are visible, hidden by grilles when fitted. Sounds good.
Mike Triggs
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Thursday, May 17, 2012 - 01:29 pm, by:  Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Vifa speakers sound great, I fitted two though but only one works. As the new tweeter is showing correct impedance (3.6 Ohms) I assume the crossover is out, both woofers work. So now I have to pull it apart again and try to get the crossover out, it's probably caps as I bought these cabs 23 years ago.

One thing about travelling around, you get to places with mouse problems. This cab was full of mouse sh!t and the back of the large woofer and tweeter badly corroded (the woofer frame is cast alloy). So either mouse doings, or the salt air of Norfolk Island. The back of the tweeter from other cab wasn't corroded though. The woofers are a mongrel to get out, only took one out because I put a small tear in the cone edge (typical Wharfedale, there is no "surround" as such, it's all integrated into one piece, including the bit that's glued to frame).
Mike Triggs
Goo Roo
Western NSW
3.0GT G-Pack

Posts: 1800
Reg: 07-2005

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Friday, June 22, 2012 - 07:34 pm, by:  Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

After much stuffing around fitting the tweeters (as it turned out, they were within 1mm of the required diameter for the faceplate) by grinding wood away with a Dremel-like tool (the faceplate was a lot thicker, and the cutout required rather larger than the original) I found one didn't work, as above. I'd removed one of the woofers (what a farce, they fit via a cam system, no screws) after i'd managed to put my finger through the edge. I repaired that, then when tweeter didn't work, had to pull it all apart and change all the crossover caps (which would be 25 years old) only to find that the reason tweeter didn't work was that I'd mixed up the woofer and tweeter +ve leads! When connected properly, it worked fine.

For the bookshelves I bought two PSB 6 Ohm jobs (aluminium dome) which sound a tad "bright" but OK otherwise despite change in impedance. Again some stuffing around to fit, in this case I had to add some MDF to make the hole smaller. I thought about Dayton truncated cone tweets but they're big (possibly too big) and postage was ridiculous.

Having said that I've had two recent orders from Parts Express and the postage was insane on one parcel (both actually, the first only contained some speaker gasket and various glues, and came in a box big enough for a basketball!) the second took forever (3+ weeks) but had some great goodies for a speaker cabinet project including my own drivers. If only I had decent woodworking skills:-)!
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 2157
Reg: 10-2005

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Tuesday, June 26, 2012 - 09:51 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If the PSB sound a bit bright you could put a series resistor with the tweeter.

You could try 2 ohms to start with.
Mike Triggs
Goo Roo
Western NSW
3.0GT G-Pack

Posts: 1803
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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 - 06:27 am, by:  Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, Damian, a good idea to try. For the moment, I've wound treble back a bit on that channel. It seems that speakers take some time to "play in", the new ring radiators on big Wharfedales are sounding better the more CDs I play. In fact, I'm astounded they sound so good, really punchy bass and clear mid and treble. I'm hearing notes and instruments I hadn't noticed before.

As a learning project I made a small 3 litre speaker out of plywood with a little 3" Aurasound extended range and some CDs sounded positively awful. Yet, after a few more hours of playing, it's becoming much clearer, Leonard Cohen is sounding good now where before vocals were hard to hear at all. Now have to finish its mate, they'll be garage speakers (too rough looking for the loungeroom!:-)!)
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 2159
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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 - 09:50 am, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Those ring radiators are a great tweeter. Nothing else comes close to them for the price.

Drivers certainly require run in time where the dampening of the basket suspension changes.
Mike Triggs
Goo Roo
Western NSW
3.0GT G-Pack

Posts: 1804
Reg: 07-2005

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Sunday, July 01, 2012 - 06:21 pm, by:  Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Damian Ware wrote on Wednesday, June 27, 2012 - 09:50 am:

Those ring radiators are a great tweeter. Nothing else comes close to them for the price.




I'm inclined to agree, especially the ring radiators I got, which while they're Vifas, were a very good price and excellent value.

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