Soarer Central: Archive through April 28, 2007

Soarer Central Suspension UZZ32 Suspension problem - DESPERATE Archive through April 28, 2007

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Lynton Scale
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Vic
UZZ32 Active V8

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 09:38 am, by: Lynton Scale (Lscale)

Well time ran out and I had to fly home last night and am getting the car shipped back - thanks for all who have helped, this forum is awesome. I guess I will be looking for help and advice in a couple of weeks time when the car eventually gets home. I'm leaning towards a seal gone in the accumulator and the gas has gone into the suspension fluid. Thanks again guys

Peter Taplin
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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 04:12 pm, by: Peter Taplin (Mrfourwd)

Posted on Soarer central too

Just saw this post guys
Couple of points come to mind..
A stuffed nitrogen cylinder seal or otherwise will not cause this issue, all that would happen is the car would drop on that side then pump up to the right height again..just displacing more oil from the reservoir.. as this would be a slow process you would not even notice it happening.
The first thing to test would be pump pressure, I believe someone has already suggested this as the probable cause. The pressure can be checked at the accumulator behind the drivers side front underguard plastic cover, it is bolted to the frame just next to the 32 oil cooler.. Remove the pressure hose from the outside facing connection and fit a pressure gauge with at least 2500 PSI capability. ( a reading of approx 1000 psi or greater will suffice, I will check my docs at home for the right pressure) If you have pressure at this point then move on to electrical faults. has this car been worked on recently, someone posted a very salient point when he asked if anyone had worked on the car as this is usually the culprit..
If the pump is low on pressure there will be an underlying cause, but a temporary fix would be to adjust the pump pressure by screwing in the adjuster on the side of the pump.. do not do this without a gauge attached or damage to the pump etc can be caused. If the pressure fails to increase the pump or the pressure relief valve at the accumulator will be at fault, the pressure relief valve is accessible by removing the plug in the base of the accumulator and sliding out the spool valve and spring assy, if this is all free and not jammed down then you are yet again back to a pump issue. Were there any other symptoms before this occurred ? ie: loud thumping from RHF guard, screaming noise from rhf of engine etc etc

Hope this helps PT

Dave Hart
Goo Roo
Waikato
UZZ32

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 06:39 pm, by: Dave Hart (Davyboy)

Good write up Peter, this is the sort of info you '32 owners need.
Lynton, hope you get things sorted quickly and at a good price so your faith in Soarer actives isn't diminished.

Daryl Demarte
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Victoria
IS300 & UZZ32

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 07:50 pm, by: Daryl Demarte (Helieng)

Lynton, constant pressure, variable delivery hydraulic pumps do not like to get a gut full of air. Most times they will not self bleed if this happens. Have you tried bleeding the pump through the bleed port at the top outer position on the pump. See attached photo, view taken from underneath. Hard to get at but worth a try.Try all the easy things first

Lynton Scale
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Vic
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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 08:50 am, by: Lynton Scale (Lscale)

Thanks Daryl, that sounds like a good idea as soon as the car arrives back in Melbourne in a couple of weeks, I'll let you know the result - the picture is a bonus.
Dave, I've had the car for 5 years with basically no problems and I wouldn't change it for anything.

Peter Scott
TryHard
South Australia
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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 09:19 pm, by: Peter Scott (Planetsoarercom)

Hi Lynton, sorry I couldn't help much before (or now!). I haven't taken a pump or a reservoir out but I've read stories. I'd like to float some ideas for the group to consider.

This is a schematic of the UZZ32 pump. Taken from the excellent Soarer Bible.

As I understand the plate when tilted (as it is in the diagram) creates pressure. When it is straight up and down it pumps no pressure. The control/regulator piston controls the angle of the plate and pressure output.

More pics of a pump rebuild are here:
http://www.toyotaimportsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=5017&pp=15&highlight=uzz32+suspension+pump

the first photo

Upload

shows the rubber oil supply line, the metal oil pressure line and the oil supply for the piston?

I've heard off a pump going dead before (Smiffie in the UK). Nothing got it going again until the reservoir and associated bits were changed over. Then the pump sprang back to life. Sounds like the plate was stuck in the straight up and down position. Changing the bits and pieces and pipes and sensors attached to the reservoir got the pump pumping again. Valve bodies and shocks didn't do anything - I'm trying to remember but I can't recall if the pump was changed and still no pressure. Perhaps a critical component was changed while changing the reservoir? What component could that be? Would it be electrical or hydraulic or a bit of both?

I've watched a Soarer with the reverse problem. The pump wasn't dead - it was trying to blow it's brains out. The plate might have been stuck in the full tilted position and it was generating max pressure. It sounded like a pressure relief valve would release pressure and then it would pressure up again. The pump was shuddering the hydraulic lines and making terrible high pressure pulse whoosh sounds.

I think the control mechanism for this plate might be a culprit in Lynton's case.

I assume the pump plate (is it a swash plate? what is it called? - I forget) is in the neutral position when the trans is in neutral. Then when put in drive the pump is activated. So it must have an electrical connection/regulator of some kind involved? Is that an electric valve of some kind in the photo or just a pressure sensor?

Doing a suspension test sees a UZZ32 going into high pressure mode at the last switch of the suspension switch.

Disconnecting a boot sensor puts the pump into limp home modes - a soft in between mode with just a lowish pressure available.

Wiring in a plug to the central g-sensor can convince the car that it is not accelerating and the pump will remain in neutral mode giving the car greater acceleration.

Perhaps the warning chime was for an out of range sensor, that left the tilting plate in the neutral - no pressure position. Maybe in the pressure line to the piston that controls the plate there is a fault, a pressure sensor or a valve that is shut instead of open and the piston can't tilt the plate to make the pump grunt out pressure.

If the plate is not tilted then bleeding the shocks lets out the stored pressure and it's a one way ticket to the ground.

Peter Taplin
Tinkerer
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Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 09:35 am, by: Peter Taplin (Mrfourwd)

More comment from having had these things apart many times now..
The pump is a simple swash plate style pump, it has no electrical connection to turn it on or off, if you start the egine it pumps a constant pressure determined by the position of the adjustable regulator valve, this valve bleeds pressure from the high side of the pump to the back of the swash plate piston pushing the swash plate straight as the presssure increases thus maintaining a constant pressure and varialble flow.. The spring that the swash plate pushes against is very strong and it would be almost impossible for this to jam in the closed position. My car suffered from the soft hydraulic /metallic noise (overpressuring) and then started making the loud banging from the right hand front guard every 30secs, I resolved this by reducing the pressure via the regulator on the pump, this did not stop the pump noise but enabled the car to be driven and working flawlessly apart from a light mechanical noise from the pump which was the thrust washers on the swash plate. There is nothing in the reservoir or other components that can stop the pump from making presssure, except perhaps a blocked oil supply, but as this is large hose this is unlikely..

From Peters Post
}}
PETER I've watched a Soarer with the reverse problem. The pump wasn't dead - it was trying to blow it's brains out. The plate might have been stuck in the full tilted position and it was generating max pressure. It sounded like a pressure relief valve would release pressure and then it would pressure up again. The pump was shuddering the hydraulic lines and making terrible high pressure pulse whoosh sounds.

REPLY This was the problem with my car resolved by lowering the pressure via the pressure valve on the pump.. then overhauling the pump to repair damaged thrust washers.

PETER I think the control mechanism for this plate might be a culprit in Lynton's case.

REPLY Possible

PETER I assume the pump plate (is it a swash plate? what is it called? - I forget) is in the neutral position when the trans is in neutral. Then when put in drive the pump is activated. So it must have an electrical connection/regulator of some kind involved? Is that an electric valve of some kind in the photo or just a pressure sensor?

REPLY The pump pumps all the time and it's only control is engine speed and it's own hydraulic pressure.There is no change at the pump due to gearshift position etc.. the valve/sensor in the photo appears to connected to either site of the air filter.. it is related to power steering though NOT active suspension

PETER Doing a suspension test sees a UZZ32 going into high pressure mode at the last switch of the suspension switch.

REPLY Not sure what this means ??..(Peter can you advise what this high pressure mode is) what does high pressure mode mean? as the pump cannot increase pressure it is a constant pressure pump.. perhaps some function of the valve body??

PETER Disconnecting a boot sensor puts the pump into limp home modes - a soft in between mode with just a lowish pressure available.

REPLY Limp mode turns the electric valves off at the valve body oil pressure is constant to the shocks and there is no release of oil back to the reservoir via the return lines and valve body from the shocks..the shocks are locked .. hence the bounce

PETER Perhaps the warning chime was for an out of range sensor, that left the tilting plate in the neutral - no pressure position. Maybe in the pressure line to the piston that controls the plate there is a fault, a pressure sensor or a valve that is shut instead of open and the piston can't tilt the plate to make the pump grunt out pressure

REPLY For this to happen the pump swash plate would be straight which is not its normal position with the engine off.. its normal position, engine off, is tilted..When the egine starts pump pressure is routed via a large passage to a spool valve with a strong spring as pressure increases the spool valve is pushed back and oil pressure is supplied to the swash plate piston, this pushes against spring pressure and moves the swash plate level.

PETER If the plate is not tilted then bleeding the shocks lets out the stored pressure and it's a one way ticket to the ground.

REPLY How true :-(

Peter Taplin
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UZZ32 V8 Supercharged & UZZ32 V8 NA

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 11:19 am, by: Peter Taplin (Mrfourwd)

One other thought reading the post about bleeding further up the discussion..
I have never understood why these pumps literally stop pumping.. whilst I think this is a good suggestion and needs trying.. usually a pump with air in it is very noisy, which is not the case with these pumps when they stop pumping. Comments??
RH has a pump that has stopped pumping and he had it replaced.. this pump has not been touched so perhaps this is an opportunity to very carefully dismantle the pump and see if the swash plate is jammed as Peter has suggested..
Looking at the pump pic another thing to consider and this could be repaired on the car is what would happen if hydraulic pressure is being locked in behind the actuator piston? this would cause the pump to pump up to pressure push the plate straight and then supply little or no demand pressure as the plate would not release as the pressure drops.. this could be caused by the regulator valve being jammed or ??
Comments??

Peter Scott
TryHard
South Australia
UZZ32 Active V8

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Friday, April 20, 2007 - 08:47 am, by: Peter Scott (Planetsoarercom)

Peter I have been referring to line pressure and calling it pump pressure I guess.
The rear boot sensor stops bounce.'ve driven the car around Phillip Island with a low gas accumulator. The car bounced terribly. Disconnecting the boot sensor made the car soft, it wallowed in corners and had body lean- but the bounce went away. It wasn't the same as turning the suspension off from memory. Maybe effectively the suspension was turned off - but it did have some capability, I remember it being better than turning the suspension off. Got a warning chime but still drove ok. I have a third 32 at the moment and turning left slow corners (like a driveway) puts the car into a violent bouncing fit. Disconnecting the boot sensor gets the car around smoothly - It isn't a fix but bearable until I get the shocks off sometime today for cut and shut job.
Talking about that - are you satisfied with your screw in valves? I'm getting these ones some welded in schrader valves unless you have something better?

Regarding the suspension test mode - I was trying to describe that quick short firming/lift that occurs when the car is put into test mode. Perhaps high pressure mode is the wrong words, but at that last click of the switch the pump loads and the car seems to be getting ready for the test - I guess it's just a function of the valve body switching? I guess the pump supplies high pressure low volume or high volume low pressure depending on the routing of the oil by the valve body?

Peter Taplin
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UZZ32 V8 Supercharged & UZZ32 V8 NA

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Friday, April 20, 2007 - 11:56 am, by: Peter Taplin (Mrfourwd)

Peter I think you are correct in that the valve body would open ports as requested by the Sus ECU thus loading the pump as the car goes into and through test mode..
I have been using the High side aircon valves now for some time , I utilized your diagrams for positioning the collars and they fit perfectly, best part about it is you can charge them using a $120.00 R134 Air-Con gauge kit and a nitrogen bottle/gauge.. I now keep them in the garage ready for when I service the car, whilst the car is in the air I release any residual oil pressure via the bleeders then check the pressures in the cylinders, I was a bit concerned at first when I did the struts as I felt the valves may be a little susceptible to damage but they have proven to be robust and simple to use..
Cant find any pics at the moment, Doug from Crossover has used a few sets and had no trouble at all..i other point is I had a set done with double edge accumulator seals and they failed as soon as they were fitted.. at this point the o'rings are the best solution.. good job I fitted them to my car !

Peter Scott
TryHard
South Australia
UZZ32 Active V8

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Friday, April 20, 2007 - 07:32 pm, by: Peter Scott (Planetsoarercom)

What's a double edge accumulator seal? - what's that mean? If I use your air-con valves do I just cut open, new o-rings and weld back together? Any special fittings for your valves and what do they cost? Can I get a R134 gauge kit at BOC or equivalent? I removed the shocks today and I want to rebuild the accumulators next week. Two drivers side ones were dead, front was reasonable for 16 years and the other rear was just a fart.
Having a recharge kit in the garage is a big carrot for a donkey like me!

Dan McColl
Goo Roo
Victoria
Active V8 and a Factory Manual XF.

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Friday, April 20, 2007 - 08:19 pm, by: Dan McColl (Hoon)

Double edge is kind of a square section seal, with little lips at the corner.

Peter Taplin wrote on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 11:19 am:
usually a pump with air in it is very noisy, which is not the case with these pumps when they stop pumping.

Mine was very noisey when when I got a bit of air in it during my re-build..

Peter Taplin wrote on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 11:19 am:
what would happen if hydraulic pressure is being locked in behind the actuator piston?

I'd guess an unlikely scenario. I haven't had one apart, but, by the look of the schematic, there is probably a metered leak from the actuator piston, so it would default to the full pressure way. Unless, something has physically jammed in the piston. (a piece of swarf has made it's way back there from when his accumulators were fitted with schrader valves, perhaps)??

Peter Taplin
Tinkerer
Vic
UZZ32 V8 Supercharged & UZZ32 V8 NA

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Monday, April 23, 2007 - 08:16 am, by: Peter Taplin (Mrfourwd)

Dan
You are correct in that with air in these pumps are very noisy, what I was trying to get at " just not very well" is that a number of these pumps have ceased to pump pressure and are NOT noisy which would eliminate the problem being "air in the system" as the pump would be noisy, so we are looking for a fault other than air so bleeding will not solve the problem.. hope that makes more sense.

Peter I tried to get smart and looked at newer technology for the accumulator seals and used a double lip seal on the Red car see below.. this is not the exact seal but close.

These seals should have performed far better, had less gas loss over time and better wear.. what in actual fact happened was the seals failed within 10 minutes of being fitted to the car with an 80% loss of gas. obviously a miserable failure..
As the engine is out of the Red Car for a rebuild I have not removed the bad Acc's to see why they have failed but I will post up what I find when they are apart..
The other acc's that have been done have had new viton o'rings fitted and all have been a great success, Crossover now use these as a standard replacement for old units.

BOC had the R134A kits on special for a while I also notice Ebay have some inexpensive units.
Ebay Item number: 180109743814 about $130.00
This does both R12 and R134

Peter Scott
TryHard
South Australia
UZZ32 Active V8

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Monday, April 23, 2007 - 09:44 pm, by: Peter Scott (Planetsoarercom)

Peter I went through some old emails looking for your accumulator pics. I found the valve body ones but couldn't find the accumulator ones.
Do I just go ahead similar to fitting schrader valves but change the thread for the R134 valves?

How did you attach the R134 valves?
Was it a weld, tap and let the o-ring do the seal? High side , low side valves - does it matter?
That ebay set of gauges - do they all go up to 500 psi? I see they come with the thumbscrew attachment.
I have a packet of o-rings - but they are imperial- the salesman assured me that they would be fine and don't bother getting metric ones. But I want to get some metric ones- did you source some metric ones?
Anything else I should know?
(Are those camshafts still with you?)
Well that's my 20 questions!

Back to Lynton's problem - do you think the first step is a pump change?

Peter Scott
TryHard
South Australia
UZZ32 Active V8

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Monday, April 23, 2007 - 09:47 pm, by: Peter Scott (Planetsoarercom)

This is where I was looking at R134 valve pics.
http://store.lenzdist.com/section.php?xSec=25

Dan I think it would be difficult for swarf to get past the triple seal of the accumulator piston - and then isn't there a filter before getting back to the pump? I'm not sure

Dan McColl
Goo Roo
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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 01:55 am, by: Dan McColl (Hoon)

PT, thanks for clearing that up. You're right, no pumpy but no air = still quiet.

PS, Would be very difficult, as to be nearly impossible, and I think the filter is between the pump and the valve body (though obviously built into the valve body) but just a thought I had.

I think a pump change is pretty savage for a first step. I'd put a guage on the pump outlet and see if it is actually doing anything first.

Peter Taplin
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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 07:17 am, by: Peter Taplin (Mrfourwd)

Hi Peter
I will send the cams back this week without fail :-( oooops

Peter Scott wrote on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 09:44 pm:
How did you attach the R134 valves?

See pic I used exactly your method for the front (welded boss on the lower part of the shock at an angle..and just retapped the hole on the rears..

Peter Scott wrote on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 09:44 pm:
Was it a weld, tap and let the o-ring do the seal? High side , low side valves - does it matter?

I did not use an O'Ring seal, just Loctite super retaining compound (RED) and let it go off for 20 mins before charging.

Peter Scott wrote on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 09:44 pm:
That ebay set of gauges - do they all go up to 500 psi? I see they come with the thumbscrew attachment.

The high side gauge will go to 500PSI and as you only need 200 +- 30psi it works great.

Peter Scott wrote on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 09:44 pm:
I have a packet of o-rings - but they are imperial- the salesman assured me that they would be fine and don't bother getting metric ones. But I want to get some metric ones- did you source some metric ones?

I got metric o'rings from bearing service, had to order them in though.

Peter Scott wrote on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 09:47 pm:
Back to Lynton's problem - do you think the first step is a pump change?

As Dan has said I feel the first step is to check the pressure at the pump outlet.. easiest place is the first acc' next to the 32 active oil tank.

Try here it's a local place for the valves
http://www.jayair.com.au/PartDetails.aspx?PartID=3205

Upload

I think that covered it all..

Peter Taplin
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Vic
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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 07:24 am, by: Peter Taplin (Mrfourwd)

Another point..

The supply line to the valve body has no filter in it, the valve body itself has a mesh gauze strainer. The filter is on the return line to the tank from the valve body and is in the tank, moral here is the oil fed to the pump is NOT filtered, get dirt in the tank and you will damage the pump/valve body.. Toyota's thinking is the system starts off clean, only moving parts generate particulates so filtering the return line after the oil has been through the pump and shocks should keep the tank clean and crap out of the tank.. (my opinion.. someone more informed may have a better idea)

Roger Costello
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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 04:11 pm, by: Roger Costello (Roger)

Peter Taplin,
Thanks for your informative posts. (and Peter Scott) Just to clear up some confusion, are the Viton o-rings you are referring to those used as replacement seals on the sliding piston in the accumulators?

I think we need a proper discussion about results for the different methods tried so far in rebuilding the accumulators. It would also be useful to find out how many we need to order to get Toyota to produce another batch.

There is a real need to exchange as much information as possible about successfully refurbishing the accumulators rather than just recharging them. There is a very limited supply of second hand spares and whatever techniques are proven to work to get the seals sorted and reliable needs to be agreed upon before things get dire. Recharging has not worked for more than a few weeks/months on actives here in Perth. I suspect that new accumulators from Toyota are a long way off if they are ever available, so some practical approach that results in the rebuilt units lasting as long as the originals needs to be agreed upon. If there is a workshop in Australia with the equipment and experience that is already set up to do the job even better.

Hopefully all active owners can end up with a straightforward way of enjoying the ride their cars were designed to deliver.

Peter Taplin
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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 05:21 pm, by: Peter Taplin (Mrfourwd)

Roger (yes thats the seal)
The solution that Peter Scott worked out has proven to be a great method of rebuilding the accumulators, cut the bottom of the acc' remove the piston, reseal with new metric Viton O'ring, for the rears just weld back together, for the front weld a boss onto the shock at an angle, see Peters Soarer site, www.planetsoarer.com I have now had 6 sets done using o'rings all were a complete success, so for $600.00 inc valves for all 4 shocks.. $150.00 each this is a very inexpensive repair. "It will last"
I have a hydraulic specialist here in Melbourne who do the work for me and I have 1 changeover set of Acc's.. otherwise it can take a few weeks to get them done.
As for the set on my car that failed, well... thats why they are on my car. It would not be good to experiment on someone elses car.. If I get a success story with the better seals I will post it up. I have to wait till the engine is back in and running before I pull the acc's out again..
I have a set ready for changeover on the floor in the workshop, I will photograph these and post the pics up..