Last x Days Posts  1 | 3 | 7 Days  Search  Topics  Tree View  Help
  Soarer Central * Transmission * Advice needed- clutch slips on first two laps. Previous Previous    Next Next  

Author Message
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NSW
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

Posts: 1771
Reg: 04-2006

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 09:06 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

G'day all,

I need some advice. At the last two track days the clutch in the track car has begun to slip on the first lap or two, particularly in 3rd and 4th. Once everything is heated up it seems to come good.

My gut (and some advice) tells me it could be a leaky rear main seal and the reason it comes good is the oil burns off. I have got replacements for the rear main and the front gearbox seals.

My questions are:

1 is it worth dropping the gearbox to replace the seals if I don't have a new clutch to put in? Is the clutch ruined anyway?

2. Is there a patch job type fix I can do, ie replace the seals and clean everything with brake cleaner or something to get rid of the oil?

3. Should I just put up with it (it does force me to warm everything up) and do the lot once I can afford a new clutch?

I have had a look in the inspection plates. There seems to be no oil in there, but there is a drip or two under the drain hole in the bell housing.

I have my last track day on Sunday next week, and then I will be on leave prior to moving to Darwin.

What are your thoughts?
Dave Rose
Goo Roo
wa
uzz31 v8

Posts: 1032
Reg: 03-2007

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 10:00 pm, by:  Dave Rose (Sand_groper) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ben try a tin of stop leak belive it or not it works sometimes as it softens hard old seals,also check out your PCV valve .
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NSW
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

Posts: 1772
Reg: 04-2006

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Sunday, November 22, 2009 - 06:16 am, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

G'day Dave. I have replaced the PCV valve already, but it appears there is still a leak. (or the clutch is covered in oil)
Scott Wilkes
Goo Roo
Tasmania
92 TT Factory Manual

Posts: 1048
Reg: 10-2008

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Sunday, November 22, 2009 - 09:14 am, by:  Scott Wilkes (Scottywilkes) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

problem with clutches when they get covered in oil is that it dosnt dissapear, the oil soaks into the clutch plate (organic) and over a very short time will glaze the surfaces, so instead of a nice grabby surface, all u have is a very slick hard smooth surface.

Was 1 of the reasons i replaced my clutch, my cam cover half moon seals were leaking, leaked into my bellhousing and soaked into my clutch plate :-(, so was a matter of new clutch kit
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NSW
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

Posts: 1773
Reg: 04-2006

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Sunday, November 22, 2009 - 11:07 am, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Scott, (or anyone else)

I must have ADHD... I pulled the clutch this morning. There is a smigin of oil in the housing, but lots of sludge. I cant see any telltale oil runs, but the worst part of the sludge appears to be down gearbox end.

The clutch looks worn out to me, as the "pads" are worn down until you can only just make out their outline. There doesn't seem to be any oil on it. Maybe there isnt an oil problem afterall, just the clutch on its way out?

This is my worst case scenario, as I don't know where I can get a clutch at short notice and get it into the car by next weekend. Why did I wait so long to check this? *smacks head* (actually work has been crazy the last two months)

I might have to ring around like a madman on Monday. I have sent the ebay seller (for the exeedy HD clutch) a message to see how fast he can get it to me. I just have to beg the wife for $750 dollars. Plus freight (OMG!)

Pics

Upload

Upload

Upload

Upload
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NSW
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

Posts: 1774
Reg: 04-2006

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Sunday, November 22, 2009 - 11:12 am, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

and pics of the 'sludge'

Upload

Upload

Upload


plus an extra one of the flywheel.

Upload
Matt Petersen
DieHard
NA
V8

Posts: 627
Reg: 01-2008

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Sunday, November 22, 2009 - 11:24 am, by:  Matt Petersen (Mattmannz) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That flywheel is flogged out as well. Definitely get that resurfaced.

Matt
Dave Rose
Goo Roo
wa
uzz31 v8

Posts: 1035
Reg: 03-2007

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Sunday, November 22, 2009 - 11:27 am, by:  Dave Rose (Sand_groper) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gee that was quick, you dont waste time!! Ben looking at the photo to me it looks like engine rear main seal. knowing you Ben you will replace engine and g/box seals.
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone

Posts: 1946
Reg: 08-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Sunday, November 22, 2009 - 12:16 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oil plus friction material equals super fast wear. Just like brake shoes when pistons leak in drums.
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NSW
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

Posts: 1777
Reg: 04-2006

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Sunday, November 22, 2009 - 01:28 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, I surprised myself. It only took three hours to get the box out of the car and cleaned up. The bolts on top of the bell housing were tricky. and I undid more than I needed on the tailshaft. (did the forward bolts only to find it is the rears that need to come out to release the shaft from the diff)

I have the flywheel out now. There is a nice little run of clean fresh engine oil on the back of the flywheel and a heap came out the flywheel bolts as I undid them. The flywheel needs some work like Matt said.

At this stage I am considering my options:

1. Do the seals, get a second hand clutch disc and whack it in so I can get to the track on Sunday. Then shop around for a decent clutch/flywheel combo later when there is some cash available.

2. Do the seals, buy the Exedy HD clutch on Ebay, pay through the arse for overnight postage hoping it arrives in time to fit. Pay someone to machine the flywheel as a priority ($$$) and put the lot in the car by the weekend. Run the car hoping the new clutch is happy being flogged. This is going to hurt the bank balance.

3. Do the seals. Give up hope of racing next weekend and beg for my entry fee back. Take my time and get a clutch delivered the normal way ($25) and send the flywheel to be machined in good time. This is clearly the cheapest option (especially if I get the refund) but means I may not do another track day in NSW.
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NSW
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

Posts: 1780
Reg: 04-2006

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Sunday, November 22, 2009 - 04:58 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also,

Does anybody know anything about applying a 'special Toyota oil sealant' on the rear main seal prior to installation? What will happen if I just fit the bearing as is?
Cameron Laufer
DieHard
Queensland
Built 1.5j 425.8rwkw & LPG 1jzgte 204rwks @ 10psi

Posts: 848
Reg: 12-2007

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Sunday, November 22, 2009 - 08:41 pm, by:  Cameron Laufer (Ivboost) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ben, There is a company up here in Brisbane Call "Race Clutch" the guys name is Jim Berry, give him a call, He will rebuild your Factory clutch and it will be better then any aftermarket one you can buy. He can get them to hold close to 800 odd horsepower. He built mine.
Scott Wilkes
Goo Roo
Tasmania
92 TT Factory Manual

Posts: 1050
Reg: 10-2008

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Sunday, November 22, 2009 - 08:55 pm, by:  Scott Wilkes (Scottywilkes) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

pressure plate and flywheel surfaces are heat warped to buggery, looks identical to my surfaces haha, lots of little dimples, recesses on these surfaces = limited surface area for the clutch plate to grip to, so under high gears, theres more load on the clutch which will cause it to slip.

Definately get the flywheel machined (and the pressure plate if you intend to reuse it)

BTW geting them skimmed should only be a day job, cost max 50 dollars.

Mine i could push it as hard as i wanted in 1st and it wouldnt slip, any other gear it slipped.

Oil will come out of the flywheel bolts due to them being a through hole, the thread isnt sealed and goes into the sump area.

So when you refit the flywheel, make sure to use a nice coating of threadlock to seal it off.

The sludge you see is a build up of clutch plate dust and oil. Nasty, tacky stuff
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NSW
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

Posts: 1782
Reg: 04-2006

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Sunday, November 22, 2009 - 10:13 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Cameron Laufer wrote on Sunday, November 22, 2009 - 08:41 pm:

Ben, There is a company up here in Brisbane Call "Race Clutch" the guys name is Jim Berry, give him a call, He will rebuild your Factory clutch and it will be better then any aftermarket one you can buy. He can get them to hold close to 800 odd horsepower. He built mine.




I have one of his clutches in my road car. If I had the time I'd get another. My missus drives my car and loves the clutch feel. And yeah, they take some abuse.



Scott Wilkes wrote on Sunday, November 22, 2009 - 08:55 pm:

Definately get the flywheel machined


Will do- taking it to work tomorrow to try and find someone to do it. Hopefully drop it to someone at lunch.
Scott Wilkes
Goo Roo
Tasmania
92 TT Factory Manual

Posts: 1053
Reg: 10-2008

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Sunday, November 22, 2009 - 10:33 pm, by:  Scott Wilkes (Scottywilkes) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

btw, how bloody overbuilt are the soarer clutches?

I was amaized when i got my clutch to find the pressure plate was a big cast unit, lots of weight there
Costa Tsimiklis
TryHard
Victoria
TT 300rwkw

Posts: 316
Reg: 07-2008

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Friday, December 18, 2009 - 01:09 am, by:  Costa Tsimiklis (Driftshop) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Best combo for you:

Jim Berry Race Clutch Pressure Plate 4000lbs
New STD organic clutch plate (toyota)
Remachined flwyheel.

Front GB Seal
Rear Main Seal - remove the whole rear main seal housing from the engine, THEN remove and refit the seal straight. It is such a kent of a job to seal the rear main with the crank in the way.

The proper sealant to use is Toyota FIPG or the shelf equivalent - Threebond. Note: FIPG and Nissan sealants are Threebond sealants anyway!

The Threebond sealant you want is the red/black/grey one with the metal particles in it so it can form the gasket and handle the high heat. Burson/Autopro sell these for around 15-30 a tube. I do not recommend normal sh!tty silicon such as silastic - unless you are using Wurth silicon.

As for the flywheel bolts - New ARP bolts or new Toyota bolts will do with some Threebond on the thread. Most loctites are for thread lock and not thread seal - meaning that you may get oil leaking.
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NSW
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

Posts: 1863
Reg: 04-2006

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Saturday, December 19, 2009 - 12:42 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's all done and dusted Costa, but thanks. My fault for not closing this thread out, but I was in such a hurry to get it ready for the track day.

As stated previously, I have a Jim Berry clutch in the street car, and it has been in there for 7 years and going strong. If I had the time I would have got another one for the track car. I have kept the entire stock setup so I have this up my sleeve for the future.

I ended up with an Exedy HD clutch kit as the local guy got it in overnight for me. He also machined the flywheel on the spot (after the "you made a race car outta a what? conversation). I did one soft session to try and bed the clutch before unleashing hell on it for the rest of the day. Is holding up well for the time being, but feels a little soft under foot compared to what I'm used to.

I also did the rear main as you have indicated, mainly due to the fact that the other way seemed a bit fiddly and a had a higher risk of stuffing up.

Cheers all who offered advice and merry christmas

Add Your Message Here
Eye Candy
Click for full size
Bold text Italics Underline Center Text Upload photo from your hard drive Make a List Make a Table Make an Image Thumbnail Create a hyperlink Insert a clipart image Formatting Help
         

Username: Important Posting Information:
If asking a question, have you done a search to see if your question has already been answered?
Be aware that the use of SMS-speak eg "u" instead of "you" etc, will get your post deleted.
Password:
Enable HTML code in message
Automatically activate URLs in message

  Administration Administration      Log Out Log Out Previous Previous      Next Next