| Author |
Message |
Boris Siljanoski
Tinkerer
Western Australia
Soarer GZ20 TT
Posts: 24
Reg: 11-2007
|
Hello,
Does anybody know places in Perth that regas with hychill?
I've contacted Hychill but have not got a reply.
Thanks. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone
Posts: 1980
Reg: 08-2005
|
I'm about to acquire some hoses, gauges and Hychill and have a crack myself on my old Soarer that my mate's missus now drives. Let ya know how I go.
If it works out I'm going to fill the AC system in my 55 Chev with it too. |
Boris Siljanoski
Tinkerer
Western Australia
Soarer GZ20 TT
Posts: 41
Reg: 11-2007
|
Also it will be a good idea to get a vacuum pump to evacuate the system.
Let me know how you go. |
Brian Rignall
Newbie
NSW
V8
Posts: 5
Reg: 12-2009
|
I have made mention of this before.
Hychill is actually LPG. It works quite effectively, its rise in popularity is that service centres and staff are not subjected to the same compliance procedures as those who use R134.
If you want to risk having a leak in your LPG chilled system and face the consequences... go ahead.
I just had my system checked / converted and regassed with R134for under $150. Not much of a price for worry free cooling. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2056
Reg: 08-2005
|
Your repeated uninformed posts regarding negativity towards propane based refrigerants are unwelcome IMHO. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2057
Reg: 08-2005
|
Are you aware that:
Hychill is a mixture of R600a and R290 - refrigerant grade butane and propane. It is not "LPG".
Most of the major refrigerator manufacturers now fill domestic refrigeration units with this gas. Millions are made every year in Europe and Asia.
R600a/R290 is a far superior refrigerant to R134a.
R134a is set to be banned in a couple years.
The ban on DIY use of R134a in Australia is ridiculous and merely a scheme by the refrigeration industry to block people from doing worth themselves - the same reason they are against R600a/R290.
R600a/R290 is said to leak much less than R134a and even a little less than R12.
R600a/R290 can be added to an existing R12 system without having to flush it or add dodgy lubricants that will have to be cleaned later.
There is such a small charge of R600a/R290 required that fire is EXTREMELY unlikely, especially considering it requires a very particular air/fuel ratio AND a source of ignition. The chance of it all leaking into the cabin is incredibly low too.
Contrary to what the refrigeration industry would have you believe, adding R12 or R134a (or many of the other refrigerants) to a flame will generate very nasty gases including phosgene. Which kills you at only a few ppm.
R134a is the biggest load of crap around. It works your AC harder for a lesser result. It leaks easier. It usually involves the addition of exotic lubricants. It does not play well with others. Congratulations on your "upgrade". |
Lynton Scale
Tinkerer
Vic
UZZ32 Active V8
Posts: 69
Reg: 07-2005
|
From their webpage, have you contacted
HyChill - Western Australia
Regional Manager: Ken Rammell
Mobile: 0419 314 639
I believe he should be able to help you. |
Boris Siljanoski
Tinkerer
Western Australia
Soarer GZ20 TT
Posts: 48
Reg: 11-2007
|
Miles even though the chance of a fire is unlikely, it is still possible given that the quality of evaporators are very poor in many cars and cause leaks. I had a car that leaked so much gas into the cabin overnight from the evap that you couldn't bare to go inside the car, luckily Hydrocarbon gasses have a strong distinct odour so it is easily detectable, so long as people are aware that the odour is of a flamable gas then you know that you have a leak.
Now I wouldn't know exactly how much gas would have to leak inside a cabin to be able to create an explosion, usually the total charge in the system is 300 grams.
As long as your system doesn't leak, there shouldn't be a problem, and if it does leak you will smell it. The only possible way I could think would be for a heavy side impact to burst the evaporator, causing all the gas to leak into the cabin, followed by a spark from somewhere inside causing the gas to explode, unlikely but possible.
Also I think that Brians comments are very welcome, nothing wrong with letting people know it's a flammable gas.
I have contacted Ken, unfortunately he reffered me to a mobile a/c person that really didn't know much.
Luckily I am able to get a Evac/Regas for $60 from somebody I know.
It is true that it leaks less than R134a and R12, as the Hydrocarbon molecule is much larger than the Cloroflurocarbon (R12) and the Hydroflurocarbon (R134a) Molecule.
I suggest if you are going to use Hychill, get your system flushed to remove all the old oil which may be contaminated, Mineral oil used with R12 can create very harmful acids when lots of moisture is present. The PAG oils used in R134a are less succeptible to this problem, however they are hygroscopic, meaning they mix with moisture, causing lubrication problems.
Once your system has been flushed, get it fill with the correct amount of Synthetic oil (SRO500), usually places that regas with Hychill will have this oil.
For the compressors in our Soarers (z20 and z30), I have read about 8 ounces (225g) of oil is recommended to be used in the system, only problem is I'm not sure whether that reccomendation was done with Mineral or PAG Oil, Now if the Synthetic oil (SRO500) used by Hychill has a different mass per ML from Mineral/PAG oil, it's hard to figure out really how much to use.
Just as note - This Technical Service Bulletin :
http://www.ccar-greenlink.org/documents/Lexus%20Retrofit%20ac001l98.pdf
Reccomends 150ml of ND-Oil8 (PAG) for the Soarer z30. I currently have 200ml of SRO500 in my soarer and it runs fine. So i'd say anywhere between 150 and 200 and you should be fine.
Before regassing it is very important to get your Reciever/drier replaced. Ashdown/Ingram should have one that will fit, Ussually about $10. Use New O-rings.
Since when your system is being flushed various pipes will be removed, ask for new o-rings to be fitted (Most places are stingy/lazy and wont do this)
When getting a flush done, ask how they flush the evaporator, simply flushing through the inlet pipe at the firewall will not work, you cannot flush through TXV Valves, the evaporator must be removed and TXV valve be removed to flush.
If any place requests to do a pressure test using more than 200 PSI of pressure, refuse it unless your willing to take a risk of a blown evaporator.
Before getting a regas done, make sure the place uses a vacuum pump to evac the system, You should get a reading of about 400 Microns on the micron gauge, with that you should be fairly confident that you don't have a leak, however some leaks show with time.
If the readings on the micron gauge fluctuate, it could either be a leak in the system or a reciever/drier that is constantly letting out moisture, that is why it's important to replace the reciever/driers as the desiccant does deplete over time. Old reciever/driers can fail and shoot dessicant balls across the system, clogging parts.
If you have had a compressor failure, chances are the compressor has shot debris across the system, coating the insides of heat exchangers preventing heat exchange, clogging TXV Valves. Most of the debris accumulates in the condensor and stops at the Reciever/drier, however it can get passed and go across the whole system. If you have had a compressor failure, get the system flushed.
When sourcing a second hand compressor, ask how long it has not been used for. Compressors that have been sitting for a long time MAY develop shalf seal leaks. To test the compressor, Hold your finger on the large side which is the suction side, spin the hub (not pulley but the hub infront of it) You should immediately notice a suction on your finger, keep spinning it and the suction will increase, it should be strong suction and noticable pretty much as soon as you start spinning the hub. Without your fingers on the ports, spin the hub, it should have resistance and not be easy to spin, however it should not be hard to spin so much that it strains your hand, it should not have any hard spots.
It is very important to use the correct amount of Gas and oil. Too little gas and you won't get good cooling, same goes for too much gas, which puts excess strains on the compressor and creates excessive head pressures. Too little oil will cause lubrication problems and a whining compressor. Too much oil will decrease cooling. Use 30% of the required charge of R12, The For the z20 Soarer that will be 235 Grams, z30's require 270 grams. You MIGHT get slightly better cooling by having a bit more gas than the recommended amount (20-50 grams more), however charging too much more than the recommended amounts will cause problems.
I didn't chose to get my system flushed since I was in a hurry, and yes I had previously had a compressor failure, so the condition of my condenser was unknown, probably covered with a coating inside. However I Put New O-rings everywhere, Had to replace my failed compressor, had to replace a leaky EPR valve, had to replace a leaky hose, had to replace a leaky evaporator (I went across the city looking for soarers far and wide, I ended up purchasing 6 evaporators) Got them pressure tested and out of those 6, 4 were leaking, 2 were good).
Gassed up my car with the exactly recommended amount (235 Grams) and used 200ml of SRO500 oil. On a 42 Degree day, idling at 800RPM, Vent temps went down to 13 degrees. Cruising at 80km/h, vent temps dropped to 4 degrees. And keep in mind this is with quite a dirty condenser.
As far as I know, the z30 soarer has 2 fans that I think come on only to lower pressures when they are excessively high. Using a Relay to run these fans whenever the A/C clutch is engaged will give much better cooling. Hopefully when I add another condensor fan.
It is important especially for people with huge front mount intercoolers that will block cold airflow to the Condensor, to have an a/c system in good condition. So remember, get a flush done, use relays to run thermo fans etc, add extra thermos if needed.
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Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2059
Reg: 08-2005
|
PAG oil and R12 are COMPLETELY incompatible. There are ester oils that are compatible with both.
Rather than be conned into "a flush", there are other oils that are compatible with some remaining R12. Unless you have a damn good reason for one of these "flushes" they are generally just to pump up the bill. Unless you have reason to believe that your drier is dead or you somehow lost oil, I feel it is best to have a shot with the very cheap Hychill at just regassing. Many of these Toyota R12 systems will be just fine. If you have reason to believe that your dessicant is loaded with moisture, you may very well get away with holding a hairdryer on it while pulling a vac. Otherwise I would not pull a vac on it either. Most of the AC guys I have spoken to say an old R12 system will most likely hold propane for years before leaking again, so best not to mess with it if it ain't really broke. All this flushing and oiling and so on is just likely to dissolve the old rubber seals and hoses.
I don't believe you will smell Hychill as I believe it is not flavoured.
There are exactly zero ever confirmed cases of propane refrigerants causing fires in cars in Australia. There are a significant number of people however that have been affected by burning R12 or R134a. Remember, even a couple parts per MILLION of phosgene will kill you in a very slow nasty way. |
Boris Siljanoski
Tinkerer
Western Australia
Soarer GZ20 TT
Posts: 52
Reg: 11-2007
|
Yes they are incompatible, I'm just wondering did I mention in my post to use them in the same system? Might have worded something wrong making it seem that way. SRO500 is compatible with both PAG and Mineral oil. The reason why I recommend a flush to get rid of the oil is because you don't know what oils have been mixed previously, for example places that put in PAG oil and don't flush the systems old Mineral oil out. That is why It is best to get it flushed.
Like I said, when the compressor fails, it spits out debris, and coats pipes and the condensor, have a look at pipes from a car that's had a compressor failure, they will have a dark dark black powdery coating. this decreases the efficiency of a condensor. Having these debris remaining in the system will just increase the chance of another compressor failure.
It is extremely important to change a reciever/drier, especially if you have the original one in. When they are depleted, they will slowly begin releasing moisture, too much moisture in the system will cause a TXV blockage during operation, causing intermittent cooling, where people describe where their car cools for the first 4 minutes then doesn't get cold anymore. Also like I said when R/D's fail, they will spit the dessicant all over the system. Sure you can just put the gas in and not worry about it, but changing the R/D is cheap insurance.... $10. And the reason to believe that it's loaded with moisture is a 20 year old car, you not knowing any history of previous servicing, leaks and whether the system has been opened up for a long time to the atmosphere. You could try methods such as hairdrying, vacuuming etc, but how long will it take you, probably hours and it is hard to tell when all the moisture is gone. Think of it as changing a filter for your engine, you don't re-use the old one.
The rubber seals are resistant to the flushes used, the flushes are manufactured keeping in mind that the system has o-ring seals.
You will Smell Hychill as it has an odour added to it. It smells like rotten cabbage, the most annoying smell to me.. but my friends say it smells so sweet and nice !
Yep no cases of accidents with Hydrocarbons yet, possibly because they have not been in use as long in Australia in vehicles then previous gasses, but now there are thousands of cars that use them. If you ask me It's pretty safe but It's always good to be cautious.
Do you have any information about the accidents with R134a/R12? Just wondering did it happen in the engine bay during DIY regassing? or from accidents where people have tried to boil the small cans of R134a in water to help the gas flow better into the system?
As for flushing, replacing seals. It's better to do it right the first time. Sure the old seals might hold, but will eventually leak. Newer seals that are made of HNBR instead of NBR are less prone to leakages, have better compression set so will maintain their elasticity and have a better seal for a longer time. The most annoying thing is to have seals leaking later on down the track and compressor failures.
Hydrocarbons are a much better alternative for efficiency and cooling, but they wont be accepted as a replacement because of their flammability. Candidates to replace R134a are CO2, which has a similar efficiency to R134a, slightly worse. And then there is R152a.
Since R134a is going to be replaced soon, I think Manufacutrers of the gas will crank up the price, I've been noticing that most places charge at least $150 for a regas, some going upwards to $250. If that happens then sales of Hydrocarbons will really take off.
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Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2060
Reg: 08-2005
|
Co2 requires huge pressures. Refrigerants have burned in accidents not on refill. You can't buy 134a in cans to diy. If you have had a compressor failure sure you will need more work. I am just talking about a simple regas. Allthis advice to update or flush or blah blah has only evercost me loads of cash and wound up breaking a system that could have just been refilled. |
Boris Siljanoski
Tinkerer
Western Australia
Soarer GZ20 TT
Posts: 55
Reg: 11-2007
|
Well I haven't seen them avaliable for purchase at stores but people have ordered them online.
If there have been accidents with R134a, then it's more likely that there will be accidents with Hydrocarbons.
If flushing has ended up breaking your system, then you must have done something wrong, or something else caused a failure again. It would have failed anyway if you had just refilled it instead of flushed it because obviously there was a problem in the system somewhere.
You can go ahead and do a simple regas, it's cheaper, less time consuming but has it's downsides, sometimes you'll have no problems at all. I went and did a regas, 5 hours later my compressor failed. After replacing the compressor and regassing again, the compressor was extremely noisy. Found out that the system had hardly any oil in it. |
Lynton Scale
Tinkerer
Vic
UZZ32 Active V8
Posts: 75
Reg: 07-2005
|
I believe Ken Rammell has a new phone number for those who use the hydrocarbon gas in their air conditioner - 0418 164 969. |
Ben Gardner
Tinkerer
SA
V8
Posts: 51
Reg: 12-2006
|
none of this changes the fact that hychill should not be used, and not for the reasons you think. it is dangerous to use because it can cause compressor failure due to the fact that it is a refrigerant mix, as previously mentioned. hychill among other refrigerant mix products, can under certain conditions separate and liquid refrigerant can be pumped into the ac compressor causing catastrophic failure. It has been proven, and is currently trying to be covered up by the companies marketing the products. if hychill is so good, why don't manufacturers use it in their vehicles. |
Boris Siljanoski
Goo Roo
Western Australia
LS400 + Soarer.
Posts: 1553
Reg: 11-2007
|
Under which conditions can it separate and what causes the refrigerant to be pumped into the compressor?
Where did you find this information? |
Boris Siljanoski
Goo Roo
Western Australia
LS400 + Soarer.
Posts: 2252
Reg: 11-2007
|
Hi.
I just noticed that I posted this thread many Years ago originally, with many years of success running Hychill in all my cars to date as a good alternative in older R12 systems and R134a systems.
If anybody requires more information about a regas for their car with Hychill in Perth, please PM Me. |
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