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Matt Shields
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Thursday, April 01, 2010 - 09:34 am, by:  Matt Shields (Smokeyvip) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hey guys, my hydraulic clutch fan has started seizing. i have come to this conclusion because it is constantly engaged at any RPM, and is very difficult to turn by hand when the car is cold. and even at 100km/h on the freeway it soudns like i'm driving into a jet engine, and the car feels physically restrained - such is the power drain.

(based on this i'm not even going to investigate sensors or thermostats).

so rather than replacing the power hungry engine fan, i am thinking of going to electric thermos. seems like a few guys in the states have done it, although most of the ones i have seen have been a bit half-a55ed, not using shrouds etc.

i am thinking of trying to fit in twin EL-AU falcon thermos, if not perhaps two 12" holden thermos, as they are already shrouded from factory i think that's the best idea.

my reasons are because it will cost a similar amount to overhaul the factory system.

and will free up a bit of power in the motor, but hopefully also result in the lower fuel economy.

has anyone got any experience or thoughts with this?

i dont do any towing or much city driving, but i am a little worried about the 45degree days we get here that they probably don't get in the states!
Boris Siljanoski
DieHard
Western Australia
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Thursday, April 01, 2010 - 05:04 pm, by:  Boris Siljanoski (Z2tt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

AU Thermos are a very good choice, know of some people using them on their drift cars on 40+ Degree days.

Your choice of coolant is also as important, Either Toyota Long Life or Redline Water Wetter.
David Vaughan
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Thursday, April 01, 2010 - 07:39 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thermos are the worst possible choice subject to possible expense of repairing your otherwise vastly superior hydraulic system. Do you imagine that in the late 80s Toyota engineers had never heard of thermostatic fans (which I owned in an early 70s car) when planning a car to surpass Rolls-Royce and the best from Mercedes?

If you think thermos are better than the 1UZ V8 hydraulic system then I take it that you are totally demented or else have not the slightest understanding of what you have or what you propose to buy.

cheers
Boris Siljanoski
DieHard
Western Australia
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Thursday, April 01, 2010 - 07:43 pm, by:  Boris Siljanoski (Z2tt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yet most new cars use Thermos Today.

Trust me, AU Thermos are good If cooling is the matter.

Otherwise the choice is getting a replacement fan at a very expensive price, and problems later on when the hydro pump starts leaking.
David Vaughan
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Thursday, April 01, 2010 - 07:58 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Matt Shields wrote on Thursday, April 01, 2010 - 09:34 am:

my reasons are because it will cost a similar amount to overhaul the factory system.

and will free up a bit of power in the motor, but hopefully also result in the lower fuel economy.


Drivel.

quote:

has anyone got any experience or thoughts with this?


Do you know anything at all about laws of thermodynamics or conservation of energy? From where the do you think the energy to drive your electric fans will come? The Angels of the Lord fluttering down to give your engine a blow job? (Divine Induction)

Perhaps the energy will come from your engine, via double-conversion of mechanical to electrical energy then back to mechanical, not only losing efficiency but also overloading your alternator in the process?

Perhaps it would be better to have an efficiently direct mechanical process with infinite variability? Ooh, I wonder whether Toyota's best engineers thought of that idea for their new top-of-the-market Lexus brand?

HTH

David Vaughan
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Thursday, April 01, 2010 - 08:04 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Boris, on this topic you are hopelessly wrong. :-)


Boris Siljanoski wrote on Thursday, April 01, 2010 - 07:43 pm:

Yet most new cars use Thermos Today


Most new cars are cheap. Thermos are cheap.

Toyota's hydraulic system for its beautiful 1UZ motor is not cheap, and nor were the new cars to which they and their successors were fitted.

Read the archives.

cheers
David.
Dan McColl
Goo Roo
Victoria (The Nazi State)
Active V8 and the Beast.

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Thursday, April 01, 2010 - 09:44 pm, by:  Dan McColl (Hoon) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Get some bits off a wreckers and get the hydro fan going.

Sounds like it may just be the solenoid valve that is faulty, which is about 3 mins to replace, including opening and closing the bonnet.
Boris Siljanoski
DieHard
Western Australia
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Thursday, April 01, 2010 - 09:59 pm, by:  Boris Siljanoski (Z2tt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

David I think you are a bit too biased toward the stock setup, don't instantly knock off suggestions by stating the superiority of the hydro setup. Have read some posts and see that your against thermo fans. It's people that don't install them correctly, use crappy shrouds or no shrouds at all that have problems.

I personally know of many people using AU Thermos with no problem in worked Street and Drift cars, 1uz's and 1jz's. Some with factory rads too.

Falcons are made to withstand our conditions - bloody hot, which is why their thermos are popular among many imports....

As for the Stock Hydro fan, whether they flow more air than the AU's, probably do. Are they more energy efficient, most likely with the variable speed control, can setup the AU's to run at variable speeds too. Doesn't make the AU's crap.. They are good and they work.

Matt, your options are there. AU thermos with shroud - $50, Relay, Thermo switch $20. Relay - Cheap as chips. If it doesn't work knock them off on ebay or the boost cruising forum, then ring up Toyota and get prices for a replacement Hydro fan and Hydro Pump, replace any hoses if they are leaking and smile....

Rich O'neil
DieHard
Queensland
90 Celsior

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Thursday, April 01, 2010 - 10:18 pm, by:  Rich O'neil (Kiwiinaus) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

David is right in what he is saying , [ even if he is a bit intense with it ]it goes kinda like this " thermo's are either on or off , that means full blast or nothing !! "
The Hydraulic fan only runs at a speed sufficient to do the job therefore using way less energy .
I would say the cost of developing and making the hydraulic system cost more than a hundred brand new Falcons and all to make the car pass the States fuel thingy .
Anyhow I have a low mileage system here if someone needs one , I have it on the shelf for my own back up , I'll work out how much it owes me .
Boris Siljanoski
DieHard
Western Australia
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Thursday, April 01, 2010 - 10:22 pm, by:  Boris Siljanoski (Z2tt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah but like I said Thermos can be setup to work at variable speeds. The cost of maintaining the Hydro setup if the pump is to go faulty or leak, hoses etc.

You have to be realistic. Sure thermos may be a cheap way out, and sure if your a purist they are a turn off, but you want cooling, you will get cooling either way.

Rich if you can work out a fair price for Matt, then all will be good.
Mike Bradberry
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Thursday, April 01, 2010 - 10:54 pm, by:  Mike Bradberry (Halflife) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Geez David, you need a thermo fan to cool you down a little.
Rich O'neil
DieHard
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90 Celsior

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Friday, April 02, 2010 - 07:15 am, by:  Rich O'neil (Kiwiinaus) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you go to thermo fans the main problem you will have is removing the hydro system , you will still need a pulley for the belt to run on , you can't just have the pump running with no fluid in the system and you will need to remove the hydraulic motor and shroud so the thermos can go on the engine side of the radiator .
The Australian LS400 had thermo fans so it is a viable option , I know some one who is wrecking a LS400 so I'll find out what he wants for the electric system .
Still probably easier to fix the hydraulic system though .
Mike Beck
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Friday, April 02, 2010 - 07:33 am, by:  Mike Beck (Gold_40gt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


David Vaughan wrote on Thursday, April 01, 2010 - 08:04 pm:

Toyota's hydraulic system for its beautiful 1UZ motor is not cheap, and nor were the new cars to which they and their successors were fitted




I have always thought this, since owning these cars I have had great admiration for the cooling fan system. It's perfect.
David Vaughan
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Friday, April 02, 2010 - 08:16 am, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Mike Bradberry wrote on Thursday, April 01, 2010 - 10:54 pm:

Geez David, you need a thermo fan to cool you down a little.


But Mike, I was having fun.

Boris, please point out to me where I said "thermo fans do not cool cars". If you could do that, then your responses on shrouds and other cars might have some hope of being relevant to my comments.

Secondly, please address the efficiency question arising from double conversion of energy, and in a system with a stock alternator. If you can do that instead of mumbling about variable speed then your responses on efficiency might become vaguely relevant.

Thermostatic fans hold down design and manufacturing costs and are quick and cheap to replace so they are practically universal in cars. The owner is the one who pays for the petrol to drive them, not the manufacturer, and people would hardly notice the difference even if they gave you a better system, for which this thread is an example!

Thermo fans are important in track cars (if they have a fan at all) because in such cars they are needed only when the car is stationary and otherwise consume no power and little weight, contributing only some drag. These factors are more important than cost for competition.

The topic of discussion is a Celsior used on ordinary roads.
Aaron Mead
Goo Roo
NT
Celsior 1UZ-FE Mines, JZZ30 1.5JZ-GTE To4z

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Friday, April 02, 2010 - 10:05 am, by:  Aaron Mead (Aaron) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

RE: The local delivery LS400 with thermo fans

If anyone get ups close to one, have a look at the radiator itself, and see if there is any differnce in the fin designs/shape/dimensions.

Curious to see if it is so.
Mike Bradberry
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Friday, April 02, 2010 - 10:50 am, by:  Mike Bradberry (Halflife) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aaron, I have the LS but nothing to compare it to. I can help out if you give me some details.
Mike Bradberry
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Friday, April 02, 2010 - 11:21 am, by:  Mike Bradberry (Halflife) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

PM sent Matt.
Boris Siljanoski
DieHard
Western Australia
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Friday, April 02, 2010 - 01:13 pm, by:  Boris Siljanoski (Z2tt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

David I'm not going to argue with your point that Hydraulic fans are more efficient, nor was I trying to but I was merely stating that thermostatic fans can be setup run at variable speeds, because many people think otherwise that it's a "EITHER FULL SPEED OR OFF THING", just to avoid that if it ever comes up.

Would you notice a fuel economy difference between the two? Marginal.

Savings in fuel are offset by the money you spend repairing the hydraulic setup when something goes wrong.

Main concern here is cooling because it sounds like the OP's fan is on it's way out, not fuel economy. Therefore AU Thermos will cool, that is it. As for economy I have no comment as this thread is more orientated in finding a replacement. The fact that fuel economy between the two will be marginal doesn't make it a big issue.

Aaron those thermostatic fans on the Australian Delivered and US LS400 are placed infront of the A/C Condenser, they should still have a Hydraulic fan setup.

To put it clear and simple.

Factory Hydro fan and Associated parts

- Great Cooling
- Expensive
- More Efficient
- More Parts to fail and/or cause problems

AU Thermos

- Great Cooling
- Cheap
- Less efficient
- Less Parts to fail.

Matt Shields
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Friday, April 02, 2010 - 02:35 pm, by:  Matt Shields (Smokeyvip) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

thanks for engaging the discussion guys.

however, from what i am reading, and the picture of this radiator on ebay - it appears that there may in fact have been a different setup on the LS400 vs the celsior, as mine looks nothing like the one pictured?

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Lexus-LS400-Celsior-1UZ-FE-1UZFE-1UZ-Radiator_W0QQitemZ160416778759QQcmdZView ItemQQptZAU_Car_Parts_Accessories?hash=item255995ca07

investigated toyodiy.com to compare, but the diagrams don't cover that part of the car. bizarre. there is no pumps or plumbing or anything. mine is the centrifugal type clutch fan with fluid inside the actual hub. there is no plumbing to it at all. deleting it is as simple as unbolting the 4 bolts on the front and pulling it off.

http://www.lextreme.com/fan.html

anyway, i'm going to do some measurements and make my own mind up. not too worried about the power drain as i'll be getting an optima yellow top deep cycle battery and capacitor to keep up with the demands of my stereo.


and dave, i think you need to go and lay down for a bit - relax.
Matt Shields
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Friday, April 02, 2010 - 02:38 pm, by:  Matt Shields (Smokeyvip) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

and yes, my car does have two push type electric thermo's on the front of the A/C condensor. two 10" fans by the looks of things.
Boris Siljanoski
DieHard
Western Australia
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Friday, April 02, 2010 - 02:47 pm, by:  Boris Siljanoski (Z2tt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes the two fans in front of the condenser came in Australian and US Models, my guess to help with cooling in our hotter climates where A/C is regularly used, even though Celsiors without them run fine, with A/C on too.

Probably since LS400's were toned down, they probably tried to keep costs down by going without the hydro setup, to compete with cars in the Australian market.

Celsiors have a Hydro fan, LS400's have a viscous fan.

Might need to replace the clutch for the fan, or replace fluid if it has all leaked out

Matt Shields
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Friday, April 02, 2010 - 02:50 pm, by:  Matt Shields (Smokeyvip) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

have confirmed, they are two completely different radiators and fan arrangements between the two.

http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/p_J_1993_TOYOTA_CELSIOR_UCF11-AEPQK_1603.2.html

http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/p_G_1993_LEXUS_LS400_UCF10R-AEPGKQ_1603.html

maybe the 'vastly superior' hydraulic system wasn't up to the demands of a hot aussie summer in the opinion of those whizz-bang engineers over at toyota
Rich O'neil
DieHard
Queensland
90 Celsior

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Friday, April 02, 2010 - 03:42 pm, by:  Rich O'neil (Kiwiinaus) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Guys the hydraulic system is " WAY " superior to the thermo set up , it's just that Australia got the " CHEAPER " version , air wasn't an option along with single pot calipers on the first models { Celsiors had twin pots ] and a host of other stuff and the USA did get the hydraulic system just not on all of them or maybe it was included at a later date ?
Think about it , why would they go to all that expense and trouble if thermo's where just as good , it was all about saving miles per gallon .
Just don't stand in front of car when the hydro system goes full bore , you'll get sucked into the grill !!
David Vaughan
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Friday, April 02, 2010 - 05:23 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Matt Shields wrote on Friday, April 02, 2010 - 02:35 pm:

and dave, i think you need to go and lay down for a bit - relax


I assume it is inexperience on your part that when I already said I was amusing myself, you think I am not relaxed. If I were more so then I would be unable to reach the keyboard, for I would have fallen off my chair.

Matt Shields wrote on Friday, April 02, 2010 - 02:50 pm:

maybe the 'vastly superior' hydraulic system wasn't up to the demands of a hot aussie summer in the opinion of those whizz-bang engineers over at toyota




Matt, you have no idea what you are talking about, and I mean that in the nicest possible way.
Matt Shields
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Friday, April 02, 2010 - 08:32 pm, by:  Matt Shields (Smokeyvip) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

got the measurements. radiator will accomodate a 770mm by 405mm assembly, so EL and AU thermos will fit snugly.

also got pricing on a replacement clutch fan, looking at $100+ for a non genuine clutch assembly, and an $185+ for a replacement fan (mine has a chipped and cracked blade should ideally be replaced least it let go and go through the radiator). so the cost difference is already in favour of the thermos.

will be running it off either a tridon thermo switch, or i may go for an adjustable controller from spal or davies craig.

interestingly, within a day of driving the fan has gone from being hard to turn by hand, to now being completely seized. i'm sure you can only begin to imagine the sound this thing is making. not to mention the power it is sapping from the vehicle. even gradual acceleration on the freeway, say 90-100km/h requires a kick down.

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