Author |
Message |
Jeff Harper
Trader NSW UZZ32 Active V8
Posts: 826 Reg: 07-2005
| OK, I finally measured up the buggers. Celsior 4 pots have the same OD and depth sized pistons as the Supra 4 pots. This indicates that they have substantial stopping power. They are nearly 6kg lighter than Supras and simple, easy to get LS400 rotors will easily fit. You will require some wheels that have plenty of room to fit them.... same for Supra. They come with pads, as is and used. New pads are 04465-50070 You need LS400 rotors x 2 43512-50150 or -50152 either. Or you could buy RDA7517SL/SR Rotors which are slotted, which means they have to be cleaned often or standard rotors from DBA. So, $500 for a pair, with pads, or pay over $800 for Supra's or $300 for TT 2 pots.
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Jan Christiansson
Tinkerer NSW Soarer V8
Posts: 96 Reg: 07-2005
| Will they fit behind the 17" Supra wheels? |
Damien Smith
TryHard NSW Manual UZZ31
Posts: 305 Reg: 07-2005
| They sure do Jan - I've got Supra 17's for the track and Celsior callipers. |
Paul Morante
Tinkerer NSW UZZ31
Posts: 17 Reg: 09-2005
| So why did Toyota not rationalise and fit the Celsior callipers to the Soarer in the first place? I can't believe it was to best fit rims to wheel arches, or offsets. Does anyone have a thought, or better still, knowledge? |
Damien Smith
TryHard NSW Manual UZZ31
Posts: 306 Reg: 07-2005
| These callipers only started around 1995 as the previous Celsiors had brakes much the same as the TT Soarer. I don't know what the weight of the 95 Celsior was but it was probably heavier than the Soarer so maybe that was why it needed bigger brakes. |
Benny Gammelmark
Goo Roo NSW V8 UZZ31
Posts: 1248 Reg: 07-2005
| They had already made the car to run with an offset of +50 which made it impossible to fit them without very special wheels. They would have had to change the front axel. |
Jeff Harper
Trader NSW UZZ32 Active V8
Posts: 828 Reg: 07-2005
| They also fit the Century GZG50, and that is a real land whale!! |
Damien Smith
TryHard NSW Manual UZZ31
Posts: 307 Reg: 07-2005
| I don't think offset has anything to do with it as all the above cars including the Supra have the same offset. Fitting a +50 offset rim over these brakes just comes down to the spoke design. |
David Vaughan
Goo Roo ACT Soarer GT-L (4.0 V8) Lexus is300 (3.0 VVT-i 6)
Posts: 1320 Reg: 07-2005
| The Soarer was never fitted with greater than 16" wheels so far as I recall. The Celsior/Supra calipers require 17". The Celsior needed bigger brakes like the Soarer V8 does. Did not the Celsior have a model change around '95, where the Z3x continued until 2000? |
Benny Gammelmark
Goo Roo NSW V8 UZZ31
Posts: 1255 Reg: 07-2005
| Damien, if you have a low offset you have more room between the brake rotors and the wheel, so it WILL have something to do with it. Whether or not it's significant is another question. |
Ian Johnston
TryHard South Australia UZZ30 GT 4.0
Posts: 411 Reg: 07-2005
| Dont the Celsiors only have 15s or 16s as standard? |
Damien Smith
TryHard NSW Manual UZZ31
Posts: 308 Reg: 07-2005
| Benny, my point was that Toyota designed plenty of rims with +50 offsets to clear these brakes. If Toyota wanted to fit them to the Soarer they could have with different designed rims so I doubt rims had anything to do with why the Soarer didn't get the 4-potters. Also, to reiterate, offset actually doesn't matter. I can show you +50 rims that will clear the callipers and +35's that don't - it all comes down to how the spokes were designed to give the clearance behind them. I know your rims don't clear them but that's because of their design, not specifically the offset. When I got the Celsior callipers I bought new rims first that were previously fitted to a late model RZ Supra so I knew I wouldn't have clearance issues and these are +38 rear, +40 front. For the track I have 17" Supra rims which are +50 offset. All different offsets, all clear the callipers. Ian, Celsiors came with 16" rims with the 4-pot brakes. See Peter Scott's article here: http://www.planetsoarer.com/wheels/wheels.htm |
Robert Hayden
Moderator Victoria UZZ32, UZZ32 Supercharged, JZZ30 '92, JZZ30 '95, UCF11 Celsior 1990
Posts: 416 Reg: 07-2005
| Damien, not entirely accurate. 1989 - 93 Celsiors came with 15" wheels with 16" alloys as an option. The larger brakes were not fitted until the UCF20 series was released in 1994, then they all got 16" wheels as standard. |
Damien Smith
TryHard NSW Manual UZZ31
Posts: 309 Reg: 07-2005
| Sorry I didn't make that clear but yes, we are just talking about the later model callipers as I said earlier:
Damien Smith wrote on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 12:29 pm:These callipers only started around 1995 as the previous Celsiors had brakes much the same as the TT Soarer.
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Andrew Meiers
TryHard Victoria V8, ST
Posts: 294 Reg: 07-2005
| Are the pads the same area as the supra's for the 4 pots? In other words are they the same braking power but lighter? |
Mark Paddick
Goo Roo ACT Soarer UZZ31
Posts: 1550 Reg: 07-2005
| Discs are slightly smaller so less braking power there but not much. From the look of them the pads are at least as big, anyone got specs? |
Andrew Meiers
TryHard Victoria V8, ST
Posts: 296 Reg: 07-2005
| What size are the rotors? |
Mark Paddick
Goo Roo ACT Soarer UZZ31
Posts: 1557 Reg: 07-2005
| Supras are 325mm. The Celsiors are smaller by a mm or two (didn't measure them). |
Jeff Harper
Trader NSW UZZ32 Active V8
Posts: 832 Reg: 07-2005
| DBA list a Supra as 323 and a Celsior UCF20 as 315 8mm less. |
Andrew Meiers
TryHard Victoria V8, ST
Posts: 300 Reg: 07-2005
| Well thats still a 30%-50% clamping force area increase. Nearly 20mm larger on the outer edge is a lot of extra area. Assuming thats its a TT going for the upgrade. |
Jeff Harper
Trader NSW UZZ32 Active V8
Posts: 836 Reg: 07-2005
| But put it in perspective.... how much extra clamping force does a Celsior system have over a TT and a V8 for $500 + rotors and you can run 16" rims? |
Andrew Meiers
TryHard Victoria V8, ST
Posts: 305 Reg: 07-2005
| LOTS |
Mark Paddick
Goo Roo ACT Soarer UZZ31
Posts: 1563 Reg: 07-2005
| If I was doing it all again I'd probably go the Celsiors. What I really wanted was to get rid of those useless standard Soarer sliding calipers and both Supra and Celsior do that (rears too!!!) very well. No more sticky pins! The increase in brake performance is a (welcome) bonus. Strange that some sources list Supra rotors as 323, 325 or 328mm. My new Toyota ones measured 328mm. |
Jeff Harper
Trader NSW UZZ32 Active V8
Posts: 843 Reg: 07-2005
| No not lots, lets quatify it... This much (save as an .xls file)
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David Vaughan
Goo Roo ACT Soarer GT-L (4.0 V8) Lexus is300 (3.0 VVT-i 6)
Posts: 1343 Reg: 07-2005
| Interesting thought, Jeff. However, you are considering disc swept area. Leaving aside pad and disc materials and construction, the variables appear to me to be- pad size
- lever arm
- area for heat sinking
of which you have calculated only the third. If we use lever arm then your first three figures are 8%, 6% and 3% rather than 20, 16 and 7 percent respectively. The UCF brakes still come out as best value on this measure. Measuring pad area would be useful to get a clearer picture. |