| Author |
Message |
Robert Cranfield
Tinkerer
NSW
Soarer V8 Limited (UZZ31)
Posts: 95
Reg: 12-2009
|
I'm back from the Salt and although I had a ball I'm tired and rather sunburnt.
Sadly for me, the new record for E/Pro is 179.9 mph so I will need to find a few more ponies to own it. I don't know how I will manage it but I definitely need to get the Soarer down there for March 2011.
There were very few Jap cars down there other than a couple of small 4 cylinders in the production classes. There was one belly tank with a boosted 1JZ but I was working the start line so have no idea how they went. It's been there before so they should have it sorted.
I will post a link to the pics when I get them uploaded for anyone interested.
Cheers,
Rob |
Jeff Harper
Goo Roo
NSW
V8 Track car
Posts: 1505
Reg: 07-2005
|
I noticed your comment regarding removing the Auto. Well, only do it for gearing reasons. There is no RWKW difference between an auto and a manual. This was proven by Manny an myself on our track car.
On a 1UZ you will also need to run some mufflers for back pressure. |
Robert Cranfield
TryHard
NSW
Soarer V8 Limited (UZZ31)
Posts: 105
Reg: 12-2009
|
G'day Jeff,
There are those that run autos in land speed but they always wind up swapping to manual ultimately. One of my reasons for changing to manual is the auto overdrive not being able to stand up to the engine HP required for me to run the record and beyond.
The peak speed "penalty" for an auto with non-lockup convertor is 12%, for a lock up convertor it is reduced to 5%. These are average numbers proven on the big white dyno at Bonneville and are reductions over a manual with 1:1 top gear.
What did you use as your basis for testing of manual vs auto RWKW?
Interesting on the back pressure, do you have any figures? It's my intention to run headers with a 90' bend at the collector and the pipes exiting behind the front wheels assuming I have enough clearance to do so once I get the suspension down some more.
Remember too that land speed is nothing like circuit or drag racing in it's engine (or suspension for that matter) requirements.
....................................
In other news, I've located a mate with a suitable pipe bender that will allow me to build the cage myself. I've also pretty much finalised the cage design and am trying to find a source for suitable seamless tube in Sydney.
Cheers,
Rob |
Robert Cranfield
TryHard
NSW
Soarer V8 Limited (UZZ31)
Posts: 106
Reg: 12-2009
|
Forgot to add the photo links from the salt for anyone interested.
http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/dlra2/2010/
http://s661.photobucket.com/albums/uu331/Dwizdofoz/Speed%20Week%202010/
http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/grahaminaus/Speedweek%202010/
http://www.dlra.org.au/2010.htm
http://pbckt.com/sg.cDA
Cheers,
Rob |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NT
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2048
Reg: 04-2006
|
andrews race cars advertise in auto action as having CDW/CDS steel for roll cages. They would probably know what you need for your requirements. I have asked several steel wholesalers about CDS/CDW steel and some had never heard of it, and others remarked you cant get it in Australia. SO, save your breath and go to a specialist race car fabricator. If they don't sell it, they'll tell you who does. |
Robert Cranfield
TryHard
NSW
Soarer V8 Limited (UZZ31)
Posts: 107
Reg: 12-2009
|
Thanks Ben,
I've been there, they don't carry what I need sadly. Performance Metals don't even carry seamless other than chrome moly. I don't need to save weight, spend $$ unnecessarily and don't need the extra worry of welding moly as opposed to mild steel.
I did get onto one place but they only had two 6 metre lengths. My minimum spec is 1 3/4" and .095" wall or metrified (is that a word??), 44.45mm OD and 3mm wall.
I haven't seriously chased it yet but will now I have access to a bender.
Thanks for the input.
Happy Easter,
Rob
PS How did you go with your cage? |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2375
Reg: 08-2005
|
Mcdonald bros carried cdw last time I checked. |
Robert Cranfield
TryHard
NSW
Soarer V8 Limited (UZZ31)
Posts: 109
Reg: 12-2009
|
Thanks Miles,
The freight to me would be a killer.
I did find DOM/CDS in Sydney but not in the required size. I just need to spend some time on the phone.
Cheers,
Rob |
Robert Cranfield
TryHard
NSW
Soarer V8 Limited (UZZ31)
Posts: 110
Reg: 12-2009
|
Had brain fade the other night, 1 3/4"/44.45 and 3m were correct but 0.095" wall should have read 0.120".
Race Tech has two 6m lengths so that'll get me started.
Cheers,
Rob |
Cihan Aday
Moderator
etuner.com.au
JZZ30
Posts: 3212
Reg: 07-2005
|
1UZ-FE specifically needs back pressure?
It might seem like adding mufflers helps 'backpressure' which helps power - especially with the factory collector-less design, or short collector merged and tri-y header designs.
In any case the power curve isn't changing because of the backpressure, its changing because exhaust tuning is being altered by the mufflers. Even straight through mufflers effect exhaust tuning.
Pressure only causes reversion which in turn causes charge contamination. Charge contamination means there's less oxygen and that can't help power in a well 'tuned' engine. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NT
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2050
Reg: 04-2006
|
I am getting a cage bent up based off Andrew's sports sedan and sent up for me to do the final cutting, fitting, and welding. It should be underway by now. |
Robert Cranfield
TryHard
NSW
Soarer V8 Limited (UZZ31)
Posts: 111
Reg: 12-2009
|
Thanks Cihan,
I was waiting for Jeff's reasoning before passing my own comment.
Check your email archive again, I responded to your last email the same day.
Ben,
That's good news then.
Cheers,
Rob |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2378
Reg: 08-2005
|
How much did the tube cost? 1.75x0.120 right?
What kind of tube bender have you got?
Is seamless mandated by your governing body? I have heard some will accept plain old ERW but with thicker walls. |
Robert Cranfield
TryHard
NSW
Soarer V8 Limited (UZZ31)
Posts: 112
Reg: 12-2009
|
G'day Miles,
I haven't paid for it yet but they quoted $36.55/metre for 1.75 x 0.120" seamless.
I can get welded seam DOM locally for $26.15 as a comparison. I figure the extra is cheap life insurance.
The DLRA only specifies that it be mild steel and the minimum dimensions as above.
My will to live dictates seamless along with the good word from quite a few Yanks I know that race over there.
The borrowed bender is a JD2 Model 3 and I'm using the 5.5" radius (180 bend) dies simply because that's what he has. The bender is cheap at $US295 but then you need to buy dies at $US350 for the 1.75/5.5" 180'.
Pro Tools has free plans and you can buy the bits you cannot make yourself from them.
http://www.pro-tools.com/200k.htm
Cheers,
Rob |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2381
Reg: 08-2005
|
From what I remember, most who specify a particular type of mild steel tube are happy with either CDS or CDW. That's Cold Drawn Seamless or Cold Drawn Welded. Both are extra strong because of the D - Drawn (Over Mandrel = DOM).
ERW is simply strip rolled into tube and welded without being drawn. In its simplest form it is used as pipe. Made more accurately it is called structural tube and is made to bear load. Structural ERW is mostly what you see in Australian steel yards as round black stuff. It is fine for use in tension or compression but not so flash with bending loads unless you keep the weld in a neutral axis. You can of course get the strength back by using heavier material or more tubes. It's not really that much weaker than the drawn tube. I think it's about 25%. It is all just mild steel after all.
Either CDS or CDW will be rated at the same strength - usually 350-450MPa. Seamless is often made from hollow billet drawn over a mandrel. CDW is ERW drawn over a similar mandrel. The weld will not be any weaker than the surrounding metal after it has been drawn. Seamless is really a product that came from hydraulic applications. |
Robert Cranfield
TryHard
NSW
Soarer V8 Limited (UZZ31)
Posts: 113
Reg: 12-2009
|
G'day Miles,
The stuff I found is 350MPa CDS, the local lot CDW. He did say that many people assume it's seamless as the weld becomes invisible after it's drawn.
I wasn't aware of the % strength difference but if it really is 25% I think it's money well spent.
If you search You Tube for "RX7 Bonneville" and watch the video you'll see what I mean, 25% in that situation is a big deal, particularly given weight brings more traction and not much of a speed penalty when compared to say circuit or drags racing.
Cheers,
Rob |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2383
Reg: 08-2005
|
I mean 25% between cheap old ERW, and either of the drawn products (CDS or CDW/"DOM").
I hope you've got a competent welder on the job! |
Robert Cranfield
TryHard
NSW
Soarer V8 Limited (UZZ31)
Posts: 114
Reg: 12-2009
|
No worries Miles,
I've seen a cage built from CDW and they put the seam on the inside of the bends wherever possible which makes sense.
Cheers,
Rob |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2386
Reg: 08-2005
|
No need. The weld is at least as strong as any other part of cdw tube. |
Robert Cranfield
TryHard
NSW
Soarer V8 Limited (UZZ31)
Posts: 115
Reg: 12-2009
|
G'day Miles,
The engineer in me says that the join is the weakest part of the tube but that's not a comment on the tube strength.
I did find these comparisons on the Bond Rollbars site and am starting to wonder.
http://www.bondrollbars.com/roll.html
Cheers,
Rob |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2388
Reg: 08-2005
|
The weaker part of erw is the heat affected zone beside the weld which has an irregular crystalline structure. The drawing process fixes it similar to forging. I would use either. They should both be rated at the same yield strength if they are drawn for structural use and are both accepted by bodies like the nhra. I would put more of my money into the design and welding. At 30% cheaper material you can put in more members or employ a better welder. Most cage failures are probably at a weld or a poorly fitted fishmouth. I do believe CDS was originally produced for purposes other than structure. Hydraulics rings a bell. I believe cdw is more commonly used. |
Robert Cranfield
TryHard
NSW
Soarer V8 Limited (UZZ31)
Posts: 116
Reg: 12-2009
|
G'day Miles,
I was thinking stick/tig/mig too with the undercut issue not erw.
I spoke to a prominent cage supplier today who tells me CDS is pretty much non-existent in this country and some less scrupulent re-sellers are passing off CDW as CDS. A scary proposition to say the least.
I'm also told there is a large difference in material quality dependant upon the country of origin of the tube.
As with any weld joint, the better the fit of the two components the stronger the welded joint, I hear you there. It should also result in better asthetics.
The basic design is already worked out, just some of the finer points and shorter lengths to be finalised. It's my intention to tie in both front and rear suspension towers, run a dash bar and a floor bar at the "A" and "B" pillar bars.
That's quite a cross section of American muscle you have there.
Cheers,
Rob |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2392
Reg: 08-2005
|
Why is selling cdw as cds scary? It's just as strong if not stronger as much of the seamless tube is not made for structural work if memory serves correctly. I cannot think of a single risk using cdw.
There definitely is a big difference in quality of steel from different countries.
Not sure what you mean about undercut. If we are talking about the seam on erw it is thicker than the base metal. Are you planning on welding the cage yourself? |
Robert Cranfield
TryHard
NSW
Soarer V8 Limited (UZZ31)
Posts: 117
Reg: 12-2009
|
To my mind, mis-representing a product (or service), particularly in the race industry and a safety related item is scary regardless of the final outcome. My first question would be what else is being misrepresented, not to mention the $20/m price difference.
Yes I'll be doing all the welding myself after a couple of sample joints to get the machine set up.
Cheers,
Rob |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2394
Reg: 08-2005
|
I don't see the problem. It probably happens because people selling the products don't know the difference and use the names interchangeably. Functionally there is no difference so no harm.
Are you an experienced welder? I've done loads of welding but there is no way in hell I would weld my own cage. |
Robert Cranfield
TryHard
NSW
Soarer V8 Limited (UZZ31)
Posts: 119
Reg: 12-2009
|
We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.
Yes, no issues on the welding front this end.
Cheers,
Rob |
Cihan Aday
Moderator
etuner.com.au
JZZ30
Posts: 3234
Reg: 07-2005
|
Rob email replied mate.
Good luck with the cage! |
Robert Cranfield
TryHard
NSW
Soarer V8 Limited (UZZ31)
Posts: 120
Reg: 12-2009
|
Thanks Cihan,
Responded to mate.
Cheers,
Rob |
Robert Cranfield
TryHard
NSW
Soarer V8 Limited (UZZ31)
Posts: 135
Reg: 12-2009
|
It's been a while so I thought it time to update.
CDS found, cross that one off the list.
Front wheels have now been replaced with 15" Camry steel wheels and the centers have been welded to the rims for the full 360" as required by the rules.
I've been mocking up tyre sizes to try and get the spoiler as low as possible and have come to the realisation that it's not going to happen.
Mostly because the front cross member is going to hit the ground before I get there. As it is I intend to weld an angled piece to the front of it (the cross member) so it slides rather than digs into the salt "just in case.
I'm still mulling over which way to go with the engine now that the record has been upped to a hair under 180mph. I need something close to 400 rear wheel HP to better that and have been told the auto overdrive won't hold up to that amount.
Slowly, slowly, catchee monkey.
Cheers,
Rob |
Neil Griffiths
Goo Roo
NSW
I have a Cadillac  and a Supercharged Manual V8 
Posts: 4972
Reg: 07-2005
|
Robert,
For reference, I have managed 208kph in 3rd gear in the A340 V8 trans with a 3.75 diff.
For 400 RwHp go like I did in the budget bin and use a large truck turbo.
My HX55 is still on boost @ 200kph, running a rich mixture with not much timing.
I could tell you how to make cheap external waste gates as well if you want.
I now have a big Volvo Snail I plan to sit on my 2JZ-GE in my Hilux. |
Previous
