Soarer Central: Archive through September 29, 2006

Soarer Central Mechanical - TT Turbo Talk Hybrid Turbos vs Reconditioned Steel Wheeled Turbos Archive through September 29, 2006

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Cihan Aday
Goo Roo
Its stock i swear.
JZZ30

Posts: 1365
Reg: 07-2005

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Friday, September 29, 2006 - 05:04 pm, by: Cihan Aday (Cihan)

Shom Bhattacharjee wrote on Friday, September 29, 2006 - 02:33 pm:
Cihan :

1) "...I've seen that 'too' guru persons dyno graphs, they have setup issues and are no where near the true power reading ..."

Can you clarify, for my education, what the "setup issues" are and what the "true power reading" is in your opinion?

2) "The theory says its not happening easy mate, not without some larger than usual planning and money."

Again, for my education, please elaborate - both on the theory and on the "larger than usual planning and money".

3) Finally, can you produce dyno graphs from soembody running a proper setup (tuned even by yourself, since you seem to have the knowledge to do so) with GCG hybrids and making <250rwkW when the "boost is jacked up"?

4) "I don't want to offend anyone ..." is a sophist statement in the context you've supplied.

Are you implying that the "too guru" is
a) lying
b) deliberately misleading people
c) stupid

... with respect to his mods and results ? If so, I'd like to hear your reasoning.

1. Dynometers have sensor inputs to derive deviated power graph outputs based on implemented standards. One of the most significant contributors to the deviation is intake temperature. On the graphed example I have seen (over 310rwkw), the intake temperature (IT) probe placement was far from ideal and subsequent temperature exaggerated by roughly 5 fold (over 120c with an ambient temperature (AT) of ~25c). The sensor inputs used for the power calculation derived power output are clearly visible on all dyno dynamics graphs (including shootout mode) and are represented by numbers found on the bottom of the chart.

2. Using Garrett CHRA's and 'making them fit' into CT12a housings is where the problem lays.

It takes time and money to get results when you have such result impeding limitations imposed on a system. An engine is a 'system' after all, there is a bottle-neck at and after the standard 1JZ exhaust manifold when you approach a certain power level. There are increasingly diminishing returns above 260rwkw. Consider that most of the hybrid implementations out there barring the guru's are using standard unmodified cast manifolds. The standard ct12a exhaust housings are also a major limitation. There is a finite amount of housing material you can remove whilst maintaining product integrity. There's also a reason why Garrett use larger turbine housings and turbines for high power applications.

Since we have these restrictions on the exhaust side, the 'planning' and 'money' would be spent improving the general efficiency of the head. Careful camshaft selection and centerline adjustment, porting and flow matching. I suppose you could use your imagination.

I've stated before what i believe a competently assembled and tuned hybrid setup is able to achieve, siting reasons and producing numbers while working it through. I think the deduced figure was 280rwkw. With respect to this specific application, its hard to attract another 20rwkw, and then some, to fulfil claims.

3.

Shane McInnes wrote on Friday, September 29, 2006 - 03:24 pm:
I only made 240rwkw with Hybrid Turbos, but in saying that i still have alot of mods to do to get more rwkws, and some things to fix up.

4. Could be a range of things, workshops love to promote themselves by showing large gains from simple mods, tweaks or product installations. If I was psychic I would tell you exactly why the dyno graphs are skewed. I'm not going to lie, i don't have such abilities.

Its not a sophist comment, the context implies i'm pointing out what I believe to be facts, without wanting to deliberately invoke offence or contrition among those already committed to the setup.

Class dismissed.

Shane McInnes
DieHard
NSW
JZZ30 GT-TL Manual

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Friday, September 29, 2006 - 05:07 pm, by: Shane McInnes (Soarin_tt)

Expensive Trevor.

Max at ATS did them for $3500, i wanted to go for Steel wheels and Hi flowed, but that costed $2700 for the extra bit of money i thought i may aswell go for the better turbos, that way i can achieve more power if i wanted too.

I believe ATS in melbourne has shut down now? or Max has left.

GCG in sydney do them. I dunno how much for though? They did Mannys Hybrid turbos. Great Results.

Shane McInnes
DieHard
NSW
JZZ30 GT-TL Manual

Posts: 575
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Friday, September 29, 2006 - 05:15 pm, by: Shane McInnes (Soarin_tt)

Thanks for explaining abit more Cihan. Makes abit more sense to me now.

Workshop i used to tune my car, knew nothing about my car or what power i wanted to achieve, i just asked them to tune my Power FC and that was it. So they couldnt of played around with results because they didnt know what i was aiming for.

Rob Andreacchio
Moderator
Victoria
Supercharged VT Calais & 1991 JZZ30

Posts: 1847
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Friday, September 29, 2006 - 05:25 pm, by: Rob Andreacchio (Reepa)

hmm.. you never saw the 293rwkw dyno graph that was posted up the day it was tuned?

I would think 293 is VERY close to 300..

Shom Bhattacharjee
TryHard
VIC
TT

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Friday, September 29, 2006 - 05:37 pm, by: Shom Bhattacharjee (Shombre)

I am not Manny's spokesperson - so I will let him respond re:his dyno setup, etc, if he chooses.

1) a)Where is the ideal position for the IAT probe, in your opinion ? I am at least as educated as you and understand what the numbers at the bottom of the dyno chart mean.
b) Are *all* Manny's dyno graphs similarly invalidated by supposedly faulty IAT placement ?

2) As you stated, the manifolds used in Manny's particular setup were not the stock cast items. Given that all the graphs currently available on planetsoarer for differing 1JZ camshaft profiles and the effect of exhaust and inlet cam adjustment come from Manny's dyno charts, it's equally clear that a fair bit of thought *did* go into selecting the camshaft profiles for his application. Lastly, of course there's a limit as to how much material can be removed from the CT12a housings whilst maintaining integrity. Do you think this wouldn't have been considered in the build ?

3) Nice try. Did you miss the bit about " ...in saying that i still have alot of mods to do to get more rwkws, and some things to fix up..." ? And at what boost was that run ?

So now you are implying that on 440cc injectors, stock cams, no ignition amplification, stock manifolds and a 3" -> twin 2.5" free flowing exhaust, a hybrid turbo setup run by a PowerFC can safely make 260rwkW+ ? The same stock cams and manifolds that you believe to be so limiting and contributing to diminishing returns ?!

Oh, and where's that dyno graph ?

4) So you don't actually have the ability to tell me why Manny's dyno graphs were skewed and put into the public purvey, where knowledgeable folk such as yourself could analyse them ? Clearly you must be the first educated person on this forum to have looked at all the graphs in that detail. My bad.

You're pointing out what you believe to be facts, whilst not seeking to deliberately invoke offence. When your "facts" seek to impugn a longstanding member of this forum, explain to me how that doesn't invoke offence ?

Finally, "contrition" amongst those already committed to the setup ? Based on your comments ? Pigs would fly ...

Bravo. My education continues.

Maurice Diggler
TryHard
Victoria
Twin Turbo

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Friday, September 29, 2006 - 05:49 pm, by: Maurice Diggler (Mau_rice)

Shom Bhattacharjee wrote on Friday, September 29, 2006 - 05:37 pm:
Clearly you must be the first educated person on this forum to have looked at all the graphs in that detail. My bad.

Lets be serious for a moment, which member in their right mind would get on here and call Manny a lying c**t and say he's full of crap and his dyno readouts are skewed... Not a good way to make friends is it.

Cihan is the first member on these forums with enough balls to question it. Admirable IMO.

Edit: I've been down this road before, I've shot my mouth off and ended up having to change my IP address and re-join because I got banned, to be quite honest, I don't come here to argue, so I will keep my account and no longer post in this thread.

Cheers, Moraurice!

Rob Andreacchio
Moderator
Victoria
Supercharged VT Calais & 1991 JZZ30

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Friday, September 29, 2006 - 05:55 pm, by: Rob Andreacchio (Reepa)

Found it!

Shom Bhattacharjee
TryHard
VIC
TT

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Friday, September 29, 2006 - 06:24 pm, by: Shom Bhattacharjee (Shombre)

Mor-aurice,

Maurice Diggler wrote on Friday, September 29, 2006 - 05:49 pm:
Lets be serious for a moment, which member in their right mind would get on here and call Manny a lying c**t and say he's full of crap and his dyno readouts are skewed...

Is that what's going on here ? I thought it was merely a dissertation on "facts" ?

Cihan, can I suggest we take this to PM ?