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  Soarer Central * Mechanical - TT * Turbo Talk * Steel wheel turbo Vs hks t3g twin bolt on turbo * Archive through October 22, 2006 Previous Previous    Next Next  

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Daniel Czechowski
Goo Roo
Western Australia
Soarer GT-T

Posts: 1802
Reg: 07-2005

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 08:33 pm, by:  Daniel Czechowski (Dan) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What can I do with the stockies though? They're only suitable for a rebuild (or maybe just one of them, who knows) and everyone has got them anyway
Michael Sztyk
TryHard
Victoria
1JZ-GTE Soarer TT

Posts: 105
Reg: 12-2005

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Friday, October 20, 2006 - 03:46 am, by:  Michael Sztyk (Sli1) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Yang Luo wrote on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 10:40 pm:

michael does the steel wheel make much different than the ceramic wheels?




Yang, The performance is pretty much the same to me, only difference is instead of coming on positive boost at around 2200rpm(?) with the ceramics, im coming on boost at around 2640rpm with the steelies. But thats accelerating pretty lightly. If you put the foot down you wont notice the difference.

Im only running the steelies with a custom 3" dump turbo back(original center piece between turbos's still), high flow cat, resinator and a cannon, K&N filter and a FMIC running stock boost.
Keep in mind the boost does creep up to fuel cut but only on pretty cold nights.
My best time is a 13.8 according to my Apexi RSM which i doubt is accurate but close enough.

Hope this contributes to your decision
Yang Luo
TryHard
vic
soarer twin turbo manual

Posts: 275
Reg: 04-2006

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Friday, October 20, 2006 - 02:21 pm, by:  Yang Luo (Steven) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

13.8 with steel wheels? why the other people can running 12seconds?what mod you have
Daniel Clarke
DieHard
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder

Posts: 718
Reg: 03-2006

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Friday, October 20, 2006 - 02:26 pm, by:  Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Steelies = LAG. Lag = BAD 60 footers which = slower times.

But with a Manual it wouldnt be a problem. Also a stall convertor helps out also.

SOme guys say they have bad lag and some dont. I guess each is different.
Yang Luo
TryHard
vic
soarer twin turbo manual

Posts: 276
Reg: 04-2006

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Friday, October 20, 2006 - 02:29 pm, by:  Yang Luo (Steven) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Daniel
i just saw the website that you gave me if we add it all up the price will be 2900 high flowed
,some one has a set of HKS T3G 3000
if i am not considering the price which one i can go to gain more power?
Bill Bogiatzis
TryHard
NSW
TT

Posts: 191
Reg: 04-2006

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Friday, October 20, 2006 - 11:13 pm, by:  Bill Bogiatzis (Boggie23) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is no doubt steel wheels lag. Ceramics get positive boost at 1300 or so rpm. Steel wheels is almost double that.

With ceramics you hit the gas and get instant (well virtually) boost. I have had steel wheels for a week now and I don’t like them very much.

In my opinion I would take ceramics over steel any day of the week. Just because they need replacing after 15 years doesn’t mean they are poor turbos. Not many people have driven new ceramic ct12a's (I know Shane mcinnis (sorry about the spelling) had ceramic rebuild and I wanted that done too but hard to find a person willing to rebuild them).

I would say running up to 16psi stockis are awesome. Almost no lag and quick acceleration (I would assume a higher revolution per min to steelies). But the thing is running 16psi on 15 year old turbos that have not been looked after much causes them to fall apart. New ceramics on the other hand I am sure will last and perform no problem.
Yang Luo
TryHard
vic
soarer twin turbo manual

Posts: 283
Reg: 04-2006

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Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 12:21 am, by:  Yang Luo (Steven) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

thanks Bill
Lindsey Swan
TryHard
QLD
GTT-L

Posts: 159
Reg: 07-2005

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Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 07:13 am, by:  Lindsey Swan (Banzaibattlecrazzzy) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Would people suggest a dump pipe when the steel wheels get installed to allow the turbos to spool a little easier? maybe this would take away some of the lag?

Also by upping the boost does this reduce lag aswell? or does that mean something else.. i dunno
Maurice Diggler
TryHard
Victoria
Twin Turbo

Posts: 362
Reg: 06-2006

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Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 09:46 am, by:  Maurice Diggler (Mau_rice) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Daniel Clarke wrote on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 02:26 pm:

Steelies = LAG. Lag = BAD 60 footers which = slower times.


Hey hey hey? Whats this?
Daniel Clarke
DieHard
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder

Posts: 723
Reg: 03-2006

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Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 10:42 am, by:  Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

SOmething that i knew would eventually LURE you in here:-):-):-)

Like i also said dude, Some say bad lag. Others say good:-)

I think a good upgrade with Steel Wheels is an Adjustable Exhaust Cam Gear. This will help the spool times a little more:-)

Lifting the boost wont reduce Lag. Boost will only rise once the turbo has enough speed and rpm to start compressing air. Adjusting the boost will only affect the Boost Limit. It doesnt help spool up earlier.
Yang Luo
TryHard
vic
soarer twin turbo manual

Posts: 286
Reg: 04-2006

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Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 01:02 pm, by:  Yang Luo (Steven) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

dump pipe is the one you must have in your soarer
Steven Nanevski
DieHard
NSW
HKS 264/264 Cams are in, Cheering....

Posts: 648
Reg: 07-2005

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Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 01:29 pm, by:  Steven Nanevski (Imprestik) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The only problem with steel wheel turbos compared to ceramics is the amount of turbine blades there are (that is comparing cheap chinese ones to standard ceramics).

With these cheap chinese steel wheels, I can almost gaurentee you there are not many blades in the turbine, estimate about 8 blades, where the ceramics have 12 or more blades, hence the quicker spool up, and dont forget the ceramic is a little lighter than steel. Also the less blades you have in the turbine, of course you are going to lag more because it is going to have to need more force to spin the turbine hence lag.

I can pretty much guess that is you had a steel wheel turbine designed exactly the same as the ceramic one, you will have hardly any issue with lag at all, maybe a slight difference due to weight differences between steel and ceramic.
Yang Luo
TryHard
vic
soarer twin turbo manual

Posts: 288
Reg: 04-2006

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Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 01:40 pm, by:  Yang Luo (Steven) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

steven what boost your running with your steel wheel turbo as a daily driving
Steven Nanevski
DieHard
NSW
HKS 264/264 Cams are in, Cheering....

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Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 02:11 pm, by:  Steven Nanevski (Imprestik) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I dont have steel wheeled turbos yet, and am not planning on until i know my current ones are on the way out, no point of changing or rebuilding perfectly good ceramics for the time being. I am currently running 13psi.
Yang Luo
TryHard
vic
soarer twin turbo manual

Posts: 289
Reg: 04-2006

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Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 02:22 pm, by:  Yang Luo (Steven) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

thanks mate
Ben Lipman
TryHard
NSW
Soarer TT

Posts: 177
Reg: 04-2006

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Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 06:51 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Has anyone done back to back tests, or is there any scientific (read: no ego or opinions)data on the performance between these common options?

stock ceramics Vs steel wheel?

Stock ceramics Vs steel high flows?

Stock ceramics Vs T3G kit?

It just seems to me that this is an often discussed area but we never arrive at a solid conclusion.

Before i get ambushed I fully appreciate the drivability and on road feel of the car is of major importance and hard to quantify. It is just that this is an area I (and others)will head one day when the time and funds are right.

Besides, I am always ready to learn from others mistakes.
Callum Finch
Goo Roo
WA
Soarer TT & Corolla

Posts: 2085
Reg: 09-2005

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Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 07:09 pm, by:  Callum Finch (Sigeneat) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stock vs ct12a Steel wheels.. steel wheel converted are slower >.>

A pretty good indication would be Luke Nieuhoff vs mez0rz.

Luke recently had a tune done with an SAFC2 and a EBC at 15psi. The only other mods he has is an Apexi pod filter and stage 1shift kit (however there is some thought it may be a stage 1.5). ~252rwhp (Stock turbos)

I have a similar (although not as 'aggressive as Luke's) tune with an SAFC, EBC, stage 1 shift kit, some pod filter, 3" down pipe, hi flow cat and other stuff behind that, nice big FMIC with steel wheel converted ct12a's at roughly ~17psi (1.2bar). ~280rwhp.

Now im not trying to overhype myself, but thats ~30hp difference between the two cars. They were dyno'd on the same dyno to gain that reading and in the same 'shootout' mode =P

In comes the 1/4mile; Over the night i think Luke matched my best time, and beat me bi 100's of seconds in head to head races.

The results were pretty consistant over the night as well to indicate that the cars were running essentually the same times!

Brockas has a shaky-cam vid of one of the runs we did and (its difficult to see) you can tell that Luke's car surges off quite a bit earlier than mine. When my car gets on its power band the two cars are equal, and finally towards the end i edge up slightly to finish with a hair's width between us.

This would suggest to me that the steel wheels certainly do take longer to spool up and hit peak boost.

Hope that helps with the analysis.
Ben Lipman
TryHard
NSW
Soarer TT

Posts: 179
Reg: 04-2006

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Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 07:33 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, that's the kinda no bullsh*t feed back I like. Makes me kinda lean towards keeping stockies as long as possible.

From a pic in another thread it looks like the T3G kit uses a lot of the stock intake piping. Is this correct?

Is it possible to rebuild CT12A with ceramic wheels? High flowed? Would they then last another ten years?

Perhaps I should start my own thread? This may be considered hijacking.
Jeff Wilkins
TryHard
South Australia
JZZ30 GT-TL

Posts: 251
Reg: 07-2005

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Sunday, October 22, 2006 - 05:34 pm, by:  Jeff Wilkins (Calin) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One thing you have to bear in mind Benn is desired boost pressure.

Running similar boost pressures, lets say the lovely number 14 (psi - close enough to 1 bar to not matter), the steely IS going to spool up a little slower, no doubt.

Where theyre going to come into their own is when you grab that sexy digital boost controller and wind it up to 19+ (lets assume ancillary fuel delivery/managment components are here).

Theres a fair chance them ceramic blades are still going to spool up faster....and keep spooling up as they destroy themselves inside your catalytic converter.

Steel wheels are used so you can safely (well, with more margin for error) increase boost pressure. Certainly not because they inherently produce more power, which of course they dont.
Daniel Clarke
DieHard
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder

Posts: 729
Reg: 03-2006

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Sunday, October 22, 2006 - 06:02 pm, by:  Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok, But in saying 19+psi on Standard Steel Wheeled ct12a's is gonna work and produce power. Braden had his car Dynoed AFTER his steelies were installed and was running 2psi more and produced the same amount of power.

Stock or Steel WHeeled Ct12a's Only have a Certain Efficiency Range. Unfortunatley i cant find a flow chart of any sort to produce, but all turbos Have a Range in which they produce their best flow figures..

I'll ask this though. IS Anyone pushing more than 18psi through Steel Wheeled Ct12a's ( NOT high-flowed ones). I seriously doubt they would make any more HP after 18psi as i have been told they are not efficient after that. But if someone can prove otherwise, I would be glad to hear it.

Yes Steelies will be able to run 16+psi Day in Day out without dramas. No one is arguing that. But i do doubt their efficiency after 18psi.
Yang Luo
TryHard
vic
soarer twin turbo manual

Posts: 292
Reg: 04-2006

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Sunday, October 22, 2006 - 06:19 pm, by:  Yang Luo (Steven) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

how about 18psi with ceramic turbo for daily
Daniel Clarke
DieHard
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder

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Sunday, October 22, 2006 - 06:49 pm, by:  Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ceramics wont do 18pis safely Yang.
Ben Lipman
TryHard
NSW
Soarer TT

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Sunday, October 22, 2006 - 06:53 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yang,

There is more boost which leads to more power, and then there is more boost for boost's sake. In my stock 12A turbo (rotary) we got a big increase in power from 6 to 12 PSI, but only a small increase going to 16 PSI. Others were boosting to 16-20 PSI purely for bragging rights. Why do I say this? Because that little turbo can only flow so much air efficiently. After that you are just wearing parts out prematurely.

The same would apply to the CT12A's I imagine. It just becomes trial and error because Toyota doesn't sell these for profit and therefore does not need to produce compressor maps etc for general consumption.

What I want (in the perfect world) is a turbo setup that loses none of the off idle response of the stockies, but has more mid and top end power. Oh, and I want it all at sensible everyday boost pressures. Therein lies the challenge of every turbo technician.
Callum Finch
Goo Roo
WA
Soarer TT & Corolla

Posts: 2098
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Sunday, October 22, 2006 - 07:00 pm, by:  Callum Finch (Sigeneat) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If i was to stick bigger injectors on my setup and increase the pressure a little, clean up my intake and retune i could push more power with the steelies..
Maurice Diggler
TryHard
Victoria
Twin Turbo

Posts: 366
Reg: 06-2006

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Sunday, October 22, 2006 - 07:03 pm, by:  Maurice Diggler (Mau_rice) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Callum Finch wrote on Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 07:09 pm:

Stock vs ct12a Steel wheels.. steel wheel converted are slower >.>


I don't think it's as easy as that.

I think a lot of this comes down to the quality of worksmanship and materials used. Manny has told me in the past he knows people who have XYZ mods running stock turbos make 200rwkw. Then after their ceramics die, the get a steel wheel rebuild and their car loses power on the dyno and feels a bit crapper on the street.

I'm certain if Toyota sold steel CT12a turbos there would be no difference in power over ceramics, just a slight difference in lag.

That's my 2.2c.

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