Soarer Central: Archive through June 07, 2007

Soarer Central Mechanical - TT Turbo Talk Upgraded twins with Subaru VF10 turbos Archive through June 07, 2007

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Dennis Weglehner
TryHard
QLD
R31 Skyline with 2JZGTE and A340E

Posts: 131
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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 02:48 pm, by: Dennis Weglehner (2jzr31)

Check this out. My Brothers Soarer with DIY twin turbos, 2JZ cams, 440cc injectors and Jaycar DFA. To be tuned on Saturday.

http://www.performanceforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31106&d=1179810762

http://www.performanceforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31107&d=1179810779

Jeff Bedsor
Tinkerer
QLD
TT

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 03:55 pm, by: Jeff Bedsor (Jeff_bedsor)

Need lots more pics and details, would be great if it was easy to do, you can pick up a good TD04 for a few hundred dollars. A couple of VF34's would give some serious power as well, capable of 200KWATW on rex they would have to be good for 300+ on a Soarer.

Steven Nanevski
Goo Roo
New South Wales
HKS T3G equipped TT coming soon...

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 04:55 pm, by: Steven Nanevski (Imprestik)

Wow looks the goods, very neat installation, will be keeping a close eye on this to see how it performs

Maurice Diggler
Goo Roo
Victoria
Twin Turbo

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 09:36 pm, by: Maurice Diggler (Mau_rice)

That looks great, get some good management and let us know how it goes

Sweet.

Dennis Weglehner
TryHard
QLD
R31 Skyline with 2JZGTE and A340E

Posts: 132
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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 09:57 pm, by: Dennis Weglehner (2jzr31)

OK then crappy MAP interceptor it is.

Dennis Weglehner
TryHard
QLD
R31 Skyline with 2JZGTE and A340E

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Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 01:04 pm, by: Dennis Weglehner (2jzr31)

Goes hard. Hard enough to blow the gearbox. Its running out of fuel in the top end at 0.8 bar even with the 440cc injectors. We reckon it making as much power at 0.8 bar as it was before at 1.2 bar. Just hauls.

We are sus of the fuel pressure regulator (malfuctionpassi) and will be changing it and changing the fuel rail to centre feed to centre return (its already modded with a centre fitting). Brad thinks their might be harmonics in it because we removed the pulsation dampener.

I am trying to get him to put an emanage on it. The effect the cams had with factory mapping was very rich in the mid range (where the cams are less efficient) and lean in the top end (where they are more efficient). So you need take a lot fuel out in the mid range which would be bad for ignition timing advance.

Danny Dinh
TryHard
Victoria
GT T

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Monday, May 28, 2007 - 06:08 pm, by: Danny Dinh (Xtc)

nice setup. I had the same setup but not the ballbearing types. Let see if it looks similar....uglier ofcourse

Danny Dinh
TryHard
Victoria
GT T

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Monday, May 28, 2007 - 06:11 pm, by: Danny Dinh (Xtc)

It goes hard. fullboost is around 3500rpm. At 13psi it seems like it's running out of fuel. STill running stock ecu and injectors....

Dennis Weglehner
TryHard
QLD
R31 Skyline with 2JZGTE and A340E

Posts: 140
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Monday, June 04, 2007 - 08:06 pm, by: Dennis Weglehner (2jzr31)

Nice. So they are VF10's? The ones we used are not ball bearing either. What did you do for manifolds? Got any dyno or 400m performance figures?

We got 18psi out of the stock injectors with an FCD and jacked fuel pressure with a stock fuel pump. We are trying to figure out why it is running so lean now with the extra mods we have done (which included 440cc injectors.)

Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder

Posts: 2015
Reg: 03-2006

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Monday, June 04, 2007 - 08:30 pm, by: Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain)

What is the voltage the FCD is clamping at? That would be the main problem!

Danny Dinh
TryHard
Victoria
GT T

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Monday, June 04, 2007 - 08:48 pm, by: Danny Dinh (Xtc)

I suggest to use at least a piggy back ecu.
I haven't had the car dynoed yet. Chaser has been pretty busy. I will try and get it done this week. Turbos are TD04's off WRX's

Dennis Weglehner
TryHard
QLD
R31 Skyline with 2JZGTE and A340E

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Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 03:27 pm, by: Dennis Weglehner (2jzr31)

"What is the voltage the FCD is clamping at? That would be the main problem!"

How can you say its the FCD when it ran 18psi with 380cc injectors, and it now has 440cc injectors? Or are you talking about Dannys car?

"I suggest to use at least a piggy back ecu."

Which we are using now BTW, an SAFC, dodgy as it may be.

Richard Loring
Newbie
Tasmania
TT

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Reg: 05-2007

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Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 05:20 pm, by: Richard Loring (Richzx)

I've been watching this closely and am interested to see how it turns out. Are the 2j cams worth the effort? I'm going with a Garret 3076 for awesome spool up and slightly better top end with some 440's and an e manage ultimate. Keep us all posted with the updates on this.

Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder

Posts: 2017
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Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 10:48 pm, by: Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain)

Was talking bout yours Dennis... What other mods did you do other than the 440's???

Maybe the fuel pump isnt keeping up? If the new mods have increased power then that could be whats leaning it out some?

Or the Fuel Filter might have picked something up?

Cihan Aday
Goo Roo
The blue pill or the ultimate pill, make your choice.
JZZ30

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Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 04:01 pm, by: Cihan Aday (Cihan)

Factory pump can max out 440cc injectors at factory rail pressure no problems, i've done it many times on different cars with the same conclusion.

Pushing 18psi with 380cc *sidefeeds* at ridiculous pressure is a bad idea to begin with mate, you know this.
Unless its not making as much power as you think it is, im guessing it needed a lot of extra pressure to squeeze enough fuel to run 18psi with a mote of consistency.

There's no advantage in using an S-AFC once you're out of fuel, your worst enemy right now is ignition advance.

I think Daniel's on the right track in suggesting the fuel pumps not keeping up, especially if the fuel pressure is still jacked up.

This thing will be a real joy when you get management, hence fueling and ignition properly sorted.
My bet is on the pump @ high pressure = no good, and that it'll soon develop a stutter as the boost rises even with the fueling sorted.

Danny Dinh
TryHard
Victoria
GT T

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Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 05:23 pm, by: Danny Dinh (Xtc)

booked in with Chasers for a dyno run this Saturday. Hoping to get 210rwkw at 13psi before running out of fuel (still running stock injectors).

Dennis Weglehner
TryHard
QLD
R31 Skyline with 2JZGTE and A340E

Posts: 142
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Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 09:35 pm, by: Dennis Weglehner (2jzr31)

Thanks for your interest.

Danny, like I said, you should be able to get a lot more than 13psi! We got 18! There must be a prob.

Only other mods are the fuel system, 2JZ cams, and SAFC (was running a jaycar DFA, but when we couldn't get any boost out of it we wrongly blamed it and swapped to a SAFC we had laying around). Yes the car makes much more power now than it would have at 0.8 bar with the JDM 2JZ cams.

How can it be the fuel pump when we only ran a stock pump before and got 18psi out of it with stupidly high fuel pressure, and now we run an O44 fuel pump and larger injectors? Does not matter where you set the fuel pressure. Its still no good. We obviously started with stock pressure after we fitted the new pump and injectors. Thanks for letting us know the stock pump is good on its own, but the 044 is in now.

The stock one is still inline and feeds the 044, this is how Martin Donnan done it in his soarer and how most VL's run bigger fuel pumps. The big pump takes the load of the smaller one and lets it pump a lot more than normal to allow the larger one to run at full capacity. But you say its big enough on its own.

Obviously huge rail pressure is only a stopgap measure, hence why it now has bigger injectors. The regulator it uses is a Malpassi. I hate these things and reckon it might be the prob. I had one on mine and it was all over the shop.

Also we maxed out 440's on my mates Aristo @ 18psi with huge rail pressure and an 044. That's a 3 litre engine with massive T04Z turbo. That would have been making around 450rwhp easy. We choose the 044 for its ability to keep pumping at high pressures.

Going by all that, the only way I can see it being pumps is if one is damaged or there are some strange harmonics going on. We removed the fuel pulsation dampener, which is a common mod on 2JZs. Mine does not run one and has no probs, but the batch firing of the 1JZ may be causing probs?

Cihan, remember that thread we had where you reckoned SAFC's make your car loose power? I explained where I use the map sensor on the TPS input of the SAFC so it becomes boost sensitive instead of throttle opening sensitive. And I spent ages explaining how SAFC's are useless when you are running out of fuel. We shouldn't be running out our of fuel with 440cc injectors a massive fuel pump and the ability to reliably run high pressure.

My 2JZ has no probs making 476rwhp @ 21 psi with an SAFC. Just wait until my mates aristo is going again and watch it churn out 520+ rwhp @ 23psi with a similar setup.

I have mine set to huge minus figure. Even with all the "power robbing advance" the knock sensors do not kick and the car probably makes over 400rwhp @ 17psi and furiously spins the wheels at 100km/h. You can actually see the dip in the power curve where it switches over to a LOWER setting as the timing gets retarded and it richens up. The lower minus SAFC setting comes in a higher boost instead of being related to the throttle positon.

So I have absolute proof this is OK on a 2JZ (at least power wise), However I do not for a 1JZ, but I can't see it being the prob. Specially since we are not even running minus figures yet so it is pretty much impossible. We can't even run 15psi yet, there are no need for minus figures to avoid the fuel cut.

I have never said SAFC's etc are better than stand alone, or better piggys like a emangage. They would be MUCH better. Yes the SAFC has some side effects which are not desirable, but to say you can't get good results with an SAFC is just wrong in my experience using them. But once again, I have not tried them before on a 1JZ (only on 2JZ's). But the gap from 380-440 is MUCH smaller than from 440-550. Anyhow, this prob can not be related to the SAFC since it is set to zero!

So this still leaves us with the prob. First step will be changing the regulator and maybe changing fuel lines over. Getting on the dyno while watching the fuel pressure guage may tell if one of the pumps is failing. A fuel filter might be the prob, but its not that old.

Cihan Aday
Goo Roo
The blue pill or the ultimate pill, make your choice.
JZZ30

Posts: 2009
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Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 10:44 pm, by: Cihan Aday (Cihan)

Dennis Weglehner wrote on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 09:35 pm:
Cihan, remember that thread we had where you reckoned SAFC's make your car loose power?

Yeah i do remember that convo.
If there was a prize for out of context quotation you'd be a winner with that remark.
In certain applications it does, when people use them to trim OFF BOOST, MIDRANGE and FULL BOOST fueling with the one 2x8 or 2x12 cell map - it runs like you'd expect it to; a bucket of sh\t!
From everything i wrote in that thread, all you ever absorbed was skewed because you think, i think SAFC's = NO POWER. I should have saved my time.

Dennis Weglehner wrote on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 09:35 pm:
You can actually see the dip in the power curve where it switches over to a LOWER setting as the timing gets retarded and it richens up. The lower minus SAFC setting comes in a higher boost instead of being related to the throttle positon.

What, were you expecting it to backflip and roll over?

Honestly Dennis.

-------------
I think the problem is the in-series fuel pump.
I never got my head around how a HUGE pump can suck more fuel through a tiny pump than a bare pickup.

Dennis Weglehner
TryHard
QLD
R31 Skyline with 2JZGTE and A340E

Posts: 143
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Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 12:57 am, by: Dennis Weglehner (2jzr31)

Why go all defensive mate? Settle down. Is this going to be a discussion where we can both learn something, or an Epenis size contest? Its up to you. I don't know everything. And its evident you don't either.

"What, were you expecting it to backflip and roll over?

Honestly Dennis. "

No, and why is it out of context given you mentioned it AGAIN in this thread? I mentioned "that" thread so you might take another look at it to save you repeating my own ideas back to me again such as "There's no advantage in using an S-AFC once you're out of fuel" which is what I argued in that thread.

According to your theories of advanced timing causing power loss, I should be seeing power gains once the timing backs off. I was trying to demonstrate to you how the advanced timing actually caused a power GAIN in my case. It runs the same minus value from all the way across the rev range from max manifold vacuum to just before the max resolution of the map sensor. So in the scope of most cars which would only run 17psi or so it pretty much IS "OFF BOOST, MIDRANGE and FULL BOOST" it runs fine. It is experiencing power loss at some stage? Maybe. But it goes damn hard and does not run like a "bucket of sh\t!

Think harder about the fuel pumps. The second pump takes the load of the first one so it only has to supply enough fuel as the second pump can flow when it is FULLY LOADED under pressure. Basically, the first one has to be able to flow the same LPH at no load as the second under full load. I can't type anymore the internet cafe is closing (I am in thailand

) I probably won't have time to fix spelling either sorry.

Peter Nitschke
JunkFilterer
South Australia
GT4.0 V8

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Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 06:25 am, by: Peter Nitschke (Pen)

Dennis Weglehner wrote on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 12:57 am:
I am in thailand

Thai me kangaroo down sport...

Joe Radisic
TryHard
WA
2JZ GTE

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Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 07:45 am, by: Joe Radisic (Joe)

Sawadee krup

Cihan Aday
Goo Roo
The blue pill or the ultimate pill, make your choice.
JZZ30

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Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 10:35 am, by: Cihan Aday (Cihan)

Dennis Weglehner wrote on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 12:57 am:
According to your theories of advanced timing causing power loss, I should be seeing power gains once the timing backs off. I was trying to demonstrate to you how the advanced timing actually caused a power GAIN in my case. It runs the same minus value from all the way across the rev range from max manifold vacuum to just before the max resolution of the map sensor. So in the scope of most cars which would only run 17psi or so it pretty much IS "OFF BOOST, MIDRANGE and FULL BOOST" it runs fine. It is experiencing power loss at some stage? Maybe. But it goes damn hard and does not run like a "bucket of sh\t!

That's what i don't understand, what 'theories of power loss' you're talking about Dennis? Everything i ever said had a reason, i said nothing that intentionally lead you to believe all ignition advance causes power loss. Between 0-10psi toyota have got it right, there's no point 'advancing' it. Above that, timing drops off pretty fast and advance will obviously aid power development.

So, of course going into negative numbers on the safc is going to make more power up and around the map sensor resolution cutoff where its retarded heavily from the factory. Its no new revelation, hence the back-flip comment. Down low, however it probably is losing response and midrange where its already ideal from the factory.

If it 'goes hard' it must be OK right.

Just so you understand; I'm not arguing for the sake of epenis growth, just a little annoyed. You still pursue in covering my responses with a single blanket statement and attacking them with a WOT power figure and an arse-g-meter claiming it works 'good enough' in all conditions.
Again; I've done it many times and everyone appreciates the changeover to an e-manage ultimate to trim injectors directly. I'm working on Reepa's car now (twin 2560r's (ATS melbourne) with FCD and safc), i'll let you know how it goes when the EMU goes in ;)

I swapped over the management (unichip + safc) in Dean Carsen's manual 1JZ jzz30 to an ultimate. Even with 256/264 cams it makes 15psi by 3300rpm in 2nd gear with similar turbos to Reepa.

Anyway i think the picture's clear, i have no REAL beef with you so don't get the wrong idea.