Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 03:58 pm, by: Ben Socratous(Socrates)
Hey guys, just wondering for those of you that are busting out big power figures (around 300ish rwkw) if you have any heat related issues?
I went out with a mate in his car for a bit of a drive last night. He has an A70 supra, 1J, GT35R, injectors, ecu, etc, etc and has just got it tuned at 304rwkw. His radiator is in good condition (just been serviced) and has a hybrid fmic kit, so one would assume its of decent cooling capacity.
We went through some nice roads, and was pushing it relatively hard. After a while, the water temp gauge was pushing the red zone, cabin was quite warm and the amount of hot air coming out from the engine bay meant you couldn't stand within about 5 feet of the front of the car (turbo housing red, turbo manifold yellow!).
Now this wasn't a little squirt off the line when you have a skyline next to you, but more so around 20-25 minutes of hardly going below 4500rpm.
Anyone experienced these kind of issues with the Z30? I kind of guessed when my engine goes back in it will run warmer than standard, but if I have to contend with what we did last night, I think I might lower the power figures I'm chasing! That in a track car is one thing, but unless I decide to go full track spec, I would like to think that I can give my car a bit in the hills without being to uncomfortable in the cabin.
If any of you guys have experienced this type of situation, what did you do to counter-act it? I'm in the process of re-designing some of the under trays and ducting under the bonnet (don't worry, I have the help of an airflow engineer, I'm not just making stuff up as I go! lol) and will also be installing a decent size reverse vent in the low pressure area of the bonnet to help suck out the excess heat. Any other suggestions?
Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 07:39 pm, by: Cameron Laufer(Ivboost)
Ben, is his car running a clutch fan or thermos with or without fan a shroud? when my car was being tuned it was on the dyno for close to 3 hours and water temp never got over 96 C which on the soarer is 1 mark above half way on the gauge, my radiator way a brand new copper job.
Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 07:44 pm, by: Daniel Clarke(Dieseltrain)
Run a cooler thermostat maybe a TRD one. You could possibly go with a nice shiny Aftermarket Alloy radiator thats thicker than the stocker...
Ive seen these on skylines doin track work without dramas ! In fact, one setup was so good, when it was on the dyno, we put cardboard in front of the radiator to block the airflow to allow it to get up to temp properly ! Car was making 430rwhp in circuit form.
Also try and retain the front radiator ducting or modify it somehow. Would thermo fans be more suited to long WOT sessions as opposed to the factory fans?
Also, what about some form of Vented bonnet?
Ben B's Car was on the dyno for 5-6 hours of punishment without any cooling issues. He was running the stock clutch fan and shroud, Dont forget on the dyno though, the bonnet is up which can help.
Ben Socratous Goo Roo SA I am the fibreglass/kevlar/carbonfibre king!
Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 07:56 pm, by: Ben Socratous(Socrates)
He's running stock hydro fan (yes hydro fan on a 1J) and stock shroud.
I first thought of a cooler thermostat, and toying with the idea of venting his bonnet. Thicker radiator probably not an option as there is only just enough room for the fan between the radiator and the block on an A70, they don't have heaps of room like our cars!
Cheers guys. Bit of food for thought for my project, and some ideas as to what to do on his car. Silly me said I'd fix it for him, but then he has bought me a new clutch, so kinda owe him! lol
Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 10:28 pm, by: Daniel Clarke(Dieseltrain)
I think most aftermarket jobbies are 52mm instead of 36mm.. Would he fit the extra 16mm in there without any issues? The tanks are generally similar in size though. Maybe measure it up again.
What type of coolant is he using? And what ratio? Mix it to the strongest ratio i guess. What about his Radiator cap?
Monday, October 27, 2008 - 12:56 pm, by: Dave Cazes(Cazman)
Cameron Laufer wrote on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 07:39 pm:
96 is nothing to brag about, really thats quite bad, you want your car to run at thermostat temp always. A fully syn oil doesntbreak down till 100deg but thats not leaving any leeway
Daniel Clarke wrote on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 10:28 pm:
Coolant mixture - WRONG. Big wrong. So far off the mark dude
Taken form redlines site, and a well known ffact, glycol ie coolant makes your car hotter. It is there to stop anti boil, and corrosion, not transfer heat properties
WaterWetter improves heat transfer and does it faster. Increasing the flow of heat to the coolant usually increases the efficiency of the engine. Compared times show WW reduces temperature faster than water (took 15% longer) or glycol/water (220% longer) or 100% glycol (550% longer).
Monday, October 27, 2008 - 01:11 pm, by: Cameron Laufer(Ivboost)
Dave, I was stating a fact not bragging, Gees.
Dave when your tt soarer up to operating temp, it's sitting in the middle of the gauge right, never moves, do you know what temp that is? any idea? I know soarers have a factory 82 degree thermostat.
Monday, October 27, 2008 - 03:01 pm, by: Cihan Aday(Cihan)
Dave, Oil temp is not equal to water temp and a good synthetic can operate well above 130 degree's without losing film thickness.. Castrol Egde 10-60w is tested at 150 degrees C and results openly stated in the product spec sheet.
Engine oil in a mildly worked 1J will see 110 degrees with ease doing any kind of repetitive circuit racing.. All the while water temps won't budge above the middle mark.
The problem isn't the oil breaking down, its either 1. metal to metal contact when the oil grade / oil base can't sustain enough film thickness at that operating temperature relative to engine clearances. Or 2. Clearances are too tight for the operating temperature and there is metal to metal contact.
Jap engines are built quite tight so there is room for concern if you're stressing them repeatedly (ie. circuit racing). In this case a lower temp thermostat makes little difference, the best avenue is an oil cooler - preferably one with a thermostat - and a heavier grade oil.
For the 1JZ-2JZ (they run very similar bottom end clearances), i'd say a Motul ester base 15-50w is great for track-work in a tight engine. Older / worn engines i'd say Castrol Edge 10-60 is about spot on. For street driving a 5-50w Mobil 1 is what id use in a high powered JZ with occasional street/strip work.
Monday, October 27, 2008 - 06:54 pm, by: Danny Dinh(Xtc)
Turn down the boost. You're probably running max boost or even overboosting. Your rear housing is running at its max efficiency. Air vents on the bonet should help reducing the heat in the engine bay
Friday, October 31, 2008 - 10:54 pm, by: Brendan McGannon(1jzspec)
Daniel Clarke wrote on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 07:12 pm:
Coolant mixture - WRONG. Big wrong. So far off the mark dude
actually daniel he is spot on,so in this case do believe what you read...
coolant percentage has NOTHING to do with what temp your car runs at!
in your earlier post you said 'mix it to the strongest percentage i guess' -its not a guessing game! you are however spot on with your other suggestions,a larger more efficient radiator core will help incredibly,as a70 radiators are useless...even with a stock engine
Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 11:21 am, by: Daniel Clarke(Dieseltrain)
If a car is mixed 50/50 and not 30/70 then it increases the boiling point. Yes this may not allow it to run cooler, but isnt it the actual boiling and steam which creates pockets of air and blows head gaskets and such??? That was my point !
Brendan McGannon wrote on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 10:54 pm:
in your earlier post you said 'mix it to the strongest percentage i guess' -its not a guessing game!
I was referring to that if he had only mixed it to the weakest mixture .
Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 12:40 pm, by: Cihan Aday(Cihan)
Brendan McGannon wrote on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 10:54 pm:
coolant percentage has NOTHING to do with what temp your car runs at!
Well regardless of the coolant or cooling system in use, the engine needs to dissipate a certain amount a heat energy to stay at a reasonable temperature, its a constant.
Using a liquid with a higher specific heat value will promote a lower average temperature, not just of the cooling system - but the engine itself.
Pure water has a relatively high specific heat valve and good thermal conductivity.. Essentially nothing beats it.
Adding a stronger mix of 'coolant' to pure water makes things run warmer overall - not cooler. The benefits of a coolant mix are higher boiling temp, lower freezing temp, lubrication for water pump, anti corrosion / anti fungal properties.
Even though the thermostat regulates water temp, adding ethylene glycol and other chemicals to water reduces its thermal conductivity and capacity to transfer energy sharply so the bores stay warmer!
Also, water wetters are just detergents with anti-foam additive - used to reduce surface tension and promote better overall heat transfer. Some people see a huge benefit going to water wetter + pure water, instead of coolant + water mixture for the reasons outlined above..
Some facts; http://www.meglobal.biz/literature/product_guides/MEGlobal_MEG.pdf
Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 08:20 pm, by: Rob Rojo(Rob_tt)
From a less scientific perspective, if your manifold is running red hot for 20 minutes or more there is no doubt it will heat up the engine bay and all that lies between it dramatically, look at venting the bonnet to direct some of the heat away from the engine and maybe wrap the manifold with the heat wrap or whatever its called.
Ben Socratous Goo Roo SA I am the fibreglass/kevlar/carbonfibre king!
Sunday, November 02, 2008 - 06:40 pm, by: Ben Socratous(Socrates)
A bit off topic, but I think I may just go for the water wetter when my engine goes back in now. CAMS are looking at taking a leaf from their USA counter parts and banning ALL glycol products from the track, even track days and drift practices! Might as well start testing alternatives now.
Monday, November 03, 2008 - 01:12 pm, by: Dave Cazes(Cazman)
so many posts to reply to, argh
Firstly, you factory temp gauge, the dead middle of it is 70 degrees to 110. Yes that big a window. it is basically a cold and overtemp gauge. Its not that helpful
I run an aftermarket gauge, and thermo fans witha tridon switch that i can activate or deactivate too and they are accurate
my car runs at about 82 degrees in the city, and if i stop with no fans on it will peak to 90 degrees on its own, if I interfere and put the thermos on i can drop my temp to about 75 degrees. if i keep the thermos on its own circuit it will fluctuate between 80-85 deg which is the off-on of the tridon switch
Now the Problem is when boosting the car. I cant keep temps low enough i removed my air con condensor last weekend, doenst make that big a difference. Too much to talk about what I have found works in this post, as I am work atm.
Also as for someone saying turbos overboosting etc, the car ben is talking about has an aftermarket turbo.
Its also a JZA70 which has : Smaller radiator and much less room behind the radiator Smaller engine bay Smaller front air dam too
Yes I agree cihan, i was just saying oils dont break down till higher temps, 100 deg was off the top of my head and a generalisation of when you should be worried.
My car gets driven hard, and while it isnt summer yet its stillnot a great sign, I can hit 100 degrees doing a serious hill climb. Not a piss fart little boost, I mean serious 5 minutes of 70% throttle (gotta slow down for corners)
Anyway, there are a few things I would like to try out still. And Im sure even my temps are within toyotas specs of reliability, as most of you guys have been running your cars at these temps for a while now (years)
but I want my car to sit at 80 deg always, like our nissan counterparts can...
i found Hi flow thermostats in 71 deg for about sub $50 too, but I rounded my thermostat housing nuts so I couldnt fit it
Monday, November 03, 2008 - 01:15 pm, by: Dave Cazes(Cazman)
Oh an ben, I asked the rep about water wetter again, its only drag racing that they will ban the glycol. its too hard to ban and test every car at a racetrack
We sell it for $30, no idea if it s a good price or not. but its alot cheaper than toyota coolant, and can be mixed with any brand of coolant, because redline water wetter isnt actually coolant.
Monday, November 03, 2008 - 04:36 pm, by: Daniel Clarke(Dieseltrain)
I might even run it with my toyota coolant ... I have a mate at Toyota who hooked me up with 4L Genuine coolant bottle last time i was there. May as well use it.
Dave , As for the 71 degree Thermostats, which ones fit? I know there are some that fit, but are shorter and dont completely back off the other gallery in the housing.
Monday, November 03, 2008 - 06:53 pm, by: Cihan Aday(Cihan)
Another vote for an alternative low temp thermostat, i'm looking for one that will fit the 1UZFE & of course 1J/2J's!
In the real world, i think speaking in terms of long term use / longevity - its important to use some form of coolant in the cooling circuit to provide lubrication for the water pump. I've personally never had any issues, but it might be a cause for concern if you're planning on doing high revs for a long period of time.. ie circuit, and still keep toyota's factory service intervals (100,000kms for water pump). Last thing you want is to complete a hard lap without a working water pump.
I though that's what separated Toyota OEM Red coolant from the green stuff for Commodores in the first place - lubricants, hence protection for Toyota water pumps and anything that it touches the cooling circuit.
In the 500hp+ builds i work with, its %33 Toyota Red with tap water by default.
Monday, November 03, 2008 - 11:31 pm, by: Danny Dinh(Xtc)
distilled water is not that expensive, since you're spending $40 for the coolant why not spend an extra $5 to get some distilled water to mix with it???
Monday, November 03, 2008 - 11:58 pm, by: Cihan Aday(Cihan)
Don't know? Tell me why Danny!
edit: FYI i prefer water with all its ions attached so it doesn't eat at my alloy radiator.
And there is nothing wrong with clean tap water. If anything doing a complete flush is more beneficial than rationing distilled water because you paid $5 for it.
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