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James Harris
Goo Roo
QLD
XTR T-66 Turbo

Posts: 2168
Reg: 07-2005

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Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 04:14 pm, by:  James Harris (Haro) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi guys,

Well my soarer seems to have taken up smoking which im not too happy about as we all know SMOKING KILLS !

Lew and I did a fair bit of work on her lately and the problem seems to have started around that time (i think) and perhaps even gotten a little worse after the work was done (but im not sure).

OK here is a list of the work done:

- 180,000 KM service (assuming dash KMS are correct which i doubt)
- Service (OIL PENRITE 15, FILTER, PLUGS)
- New Water Pump
- New Timing Belt
- New adjustable cam gears installed (exhaust dialed in at -5 already)
- New PCV valve
- Screamer pipe reinstated
- New smaller rear housing on Turbo (so turbo was removed etc etc)
- New fuel filter

OK i think thats about it.

NOTES

- I also ran some oil sludge cleaner stuff through the engine before i dropped the oil.

- Turbo itself SHOULD be in perfect condition.

- Car has NOT been retuned (STINGER EMS) since these mods were done.

- Doesnt seem to be using any oil (not noticble yet)

SMOKE PROBLEM

Ok, i get some considerable bluey black smoke when i start to get a little boost and when at WOT (wide open throttle) HOWEVER , this does not happen EVERY TIME.

I also seem to get some smoke that smells like burning oil and fuel SOMETIMES at idle. Particularly when i have stopped at the lights or something.

HYPOTHESIS

1) Sludge remover stuff, cleaned up my head/valves resulting in leaking valve stem seals?

2) Small oil blockage in turbo drain line causing smoke?

3) Just needs a tune and perhaps cam gear dialled back

4) Faulty PCV valve (or faulty install by a faulty installer?

5) Terminally ill engine ?


*************************************

Okay i think thats all i need to write down, please fire away if there is anything else you would like to know.

I look forward to hearing from the mechanically minded and i suppose some of the peanut gallery also haha.

Haro
Cameron Laufer
TryHard
Queensland
T

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Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 04:25 pm, by:  Cameron Laufer (Ivboost) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Haro have you checked to see if there is any oil in your intercooler piping? i doubt there would be seeing the turbo is in great shape, be we need to start crossing things off the list.

Penrite may be a bit too light if the engine has a little wear.

Maybe it would be worth performing a leakdown test to determine the condition of your rings as you can look for blow by, although it sounds more likely to be valve stem seal causing the blue smoke coming onto boost.
James Harris
Goo Roo
QLD
XTR T-66 Turbo

Posts: 2172
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Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 04:48 pm, by:  James Harris (Haro) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cam, cheers for you input.

When i pulled the turbo off when the work was done i was really happy to not find ANY oil in the cooler piping. But perhaps ill pull one off again and check to see if there is now.

Oil being light - also possible.

Leakdown test - is that a compression test ? I would have to figure out how to perform one of those but im pretty sure i could do it with the help of a mate and his array of tools.

Blow by

- I do not have a catch can, i have the closest to the turbo crankcase breather plumbed into my filter before the turbo.

- The other thing at the back of the plenum has a small filter attached to it. Is that my idle control thingo or something ?
Jeff Bedsor
TryHard
QLD
TT

Posts: 470
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Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 04:51 pm, by:  Jeff Bedsor (Jeff_bedsor) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would go for Penrite 30 at least, maybe a bit heavier if it's a bit sad. Like Cameron said check the intercooler piping, mine was full of oil when I got it, added a catch can and it's clean as now. Could it just be very rich as well? I know when I was tuning the Emanage if I put a heap of fuel in on boost it would blow black crap everywhere. Is it idling smooth, rich you will have a lumpy uneven idle.
James Harris
Goo Roo
QLD
XTR T-66 Turbo

Posts: 2174
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Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 05:36 pm, by:  James Harris (Haro) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK so perhaps some heavier oil next round... or next week even.

Ill pull that cooler pipe tomorrow and get back to you guys.

It has idled differently since i had my EMS STINGER installed, it is a little lumpy and uneven. Also as ive mentioned before on this forum ever since having the computer installed ive been getting "engine electrical fault" which i think has something to do with requiring a new ignitor.
Michael Keen
Goo Roo
nsw
Soarer TT

Posts: 1064
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Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 05:38 pm, by:  Michael Keen (Spoilt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


James Harris wrote on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 04:14 pm:

I also ran some oil sludge cleaner stuff through the engine before i dropped the oil.




that there is the problem, i did it in my car, and i use to do the same thing, it took about 2 oil changes to clear.. hope it the same problem as you..
Michael Keen
Goo Roo
nsw
Soarer TT

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Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 05:39 pm, by:  Michael Keen (Spoilt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

o and your car going to die, i think you should self me your ems..

hehe na jjk.

i need a ecu..
James Harris
Goo Roo
QLD
XTR T-66 Turbo

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Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 05:46 pm, by:  James Harris (Haro) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hmmm so maybe i need to ADD some engine sludge haha.

I think ill prob throw some thicker oil in next week then and see how that goes.

As for the stinger its not too bad, not happy about the error messages though.

I still have my original ecu in there running my auto, do you reckon if the ignition cam gear was adjusted during a tune it would go into "limp mode"?
Brett Harrison
TryHard
QLD
JZZ30

Posts: 254
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Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 08:12 pm, by:  Brett Harrison (Bretto) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HPR 15 should be fine. I used to get burning oil coming through exhaust after long idle, once car was warm/hot. However that was with 5w 40 oil, which was just getting to thin when hot. I didn't notice it until I got rid of the "dog" in the exhaust though. It seems like these dogs have a good habit of masking problems, which is a good reason to get rid of them.

Another point, HPR 15 (15/60) and HPR 30 (20/60) are both 60 weight oils when at operating temps, so not that much difference between them.
I think the HPR 30 is a bit to thick when cold, remember 1jz are recommended 10w.
Cameron Laufer
TryHard
Queensland
T

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Thursday, November 27, 2008 - 12:38 pm, by:  Cameron Laufer (Ivboost) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is what Wikipedia says about Leak-down Testing


A leak-down tester is a measuring instrument used to determine the condition of internal combustion engines by introducing compressed air into the cylinder and measuring the rate at which it leaks out. Compression testing is a crude form of leak-down testing which also includes effects due to compression ratio, starter/battery condition and other factors. Leak-down testing confines the results to cylinder leakage alone.

Testing is done on an engine which is not running, and normally with the tested cylinder at top dead center, although testing can be done at other points in the compression and power stroke. Pressure is fed into a cylinder via the spark plug hole and the flow, which represents any leakage from the cylinder, is measured.

Leakage is given in wholly arbitrary percentages but these “percentages” do not relate to any actual quantity or real dimension. The meaning of the readings is only relative to other tests done with the same design of tester. Leak-down readings of up to 20% are usually acceptable while greater than that requires a repair. Racing engines would be in the 1-10% range for top performance.

In the United States, FAA Advisory Circular [1] 43.13-1B [2] specifications, chapter eight, state that engines up to 1,000 cu in (16 L) displacement require a 0.040 in (1.0 mm) orifice diameter, 0.250 in (6.4 mm) long, 60-degree approach angle. The input pressure is set for 80 psi (550 kPa), and 60 psi (410 kPa) minimum cylinder pressure is the accepted standard.

While the leak-down tester pressurizes the cylinder, the mechanic can listen to various parts to determine where any leak may originate. For example, a leaking exhaust valve will make a hissing noise in the exhaust pipe while a head gasket may cause bubbling in the cooling system.


How it works

Upload

This schematic shows the component parts of a typical leak-down tester. The gauge on the right is held at a standard pressure by adjusting the pressure regulator while the gauge on the left shows an example reading of 85-or 15% leakage.

A leak-down tester is essentially a miniature flow meter similar in concept to an air flow bench. The measuring element is the restriction orifice and the leakage in the engine is compared to the flow of this orifice. There will be a pressure drop across the orifice and another across whatever leaks in the engine. Since the meter and engine are connected in series, the flow is the same across both, the pressure drops will also be equal if, for example, the size of the unknown leak would be the same as the known orifice. This would give a reading of 50 which gives the same pressure drop across each element(both the leak and the orifice). Conversely, if there is no leakage there will be no pressure drop across either the orifice nor the leak, giving a reading of 100 or 0% leakage.

There is no standard regarding the size of the restriction orifice for non-aviation use and that is what leads to differences in readings between leak-down testers from different manufacturers. Most often quoted though is a restriction with a .040in. hole drilled in it.(Some poorly designed units do not include a restriction orifice at all). In addition, large engines and small engines will be measured in exactly the same way (compared to the same orifice) but a small leak in a large engine would be a large leak in a small engine. The non standard size of the restriction orifice determines the reading which therefore differs for each design.

Some manufacturers use only a single gauge. In these instruments maintaining the input pressure is (hopefully) maintained automatically by the pressure regulator alone. Any error in the input pressure will produce a corresponding error in the reading.

In instruments with two gauges the operator manually resets the pressure to 100 after connection to the engine guaranteeing consistent input pressure and greater accuracy.

Most instruments use 100 psi (690 kPa) as the input pressure simply because ordinary 100psi gauges can be used which corresponds to 100% but there is no necessity for that pressure beyond that. Any pressure above 15 psi (100 kPa) will function just as well for measurement purposes although the sound of leaks will not be quite as loud. An engine pressurized to 100psi must be locked at exactly top dead center or it will rotate under the pressure. This presents a serious danger to the operator. Using less pressure is less dangerous and opens the possibility to test at positions other than top dead center.

Due to the simple construction, many mechanics build their own testers and those instruments function perfectly well.
Christian Molenda
DieHard
QLD
T

Posts: 948
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Thursday, November 27, 2008 - 01:55 pm, by:  Christian Molenda (Christof) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

James, your soarer is smokey. I remember on the cruise that when you started it you had some smoke come it. I remember thinking valve stem seals at the time. Having used some engine oil flush i would say that would have helped bring it on. I used it on my car and have a slight bit of blue smoke for a few thousand km's, but nothing like yours.
James Harris
Goo Roo
QLD
XTR T-66 Turbo

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Thursday, November 27, 2008 - 02:04 pm, by:  James Harris (Haro) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks guys for you input.

Well i checked my cooler piping just before for oil and they are pretty much clean which is good.

Hmmmm my old favourite VALVE STEM SEALS

I used to have an old ET Pulsar Turbo and they went in that also, i ended up just buying a 2nd hand head and changing it all over. Was a pain in the ass.

So whats the damage on a 2nd hand / new / reco head these days ? Maybe its getting that time to retire the engine itself....

or just the car itself haha. Damn these expensive toys
James Harris
Goo Roo
QLD
XTR T-66 Turbo

Posts: 2185
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Thursday, November 27, 2008 - 02:05 pm, by:  James Harris (Haro) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OH and im going out on a limb here (and expecting a hand slap)

what about that "stop smoke" stuff that you can buy in the shops ?
Christian Molenda
DieHard
QLD
T

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Thursday, November 27, 2008 - 02:26 pm, by:  Christian Molenda (Christof) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


James Harris wrote on Thursday, November 27, 2008 - 02:05 pm:

what about that "stop smoke" stuff that you can buy in the shops ?




If your selling your car and somebody is coming to look at it, then go ahead and use it, BUT i wouldnt advise it for everyday use. Just run some thicker oil and dont use the "flush" when you change it.

Also maybe get an additive to soften up the valve seats as it may be them.
Brett Harrison
TryHard
QLD
JZZ30

Posts: 257
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Thursday, November 27, 2008 - 02:31 pm, by:  Brett Harrison (Bretto) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What about the poor bugger who buys it ?

James, what makes you think it isn't the turbos?
sorry if ive missed something here.
James Harris
Goo Roo
QLD
XTR T-66 Turbo

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Thursday, November 27, 2008 - 04:34 pm, by:  James Harris (Haro) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Im off to repco now so ill have a look see around for what i can find.

Brett - its a big single XTR T66 now, it was rebuilt before i installed it by Mr Turbo, probably done 3000km or so, when we had it off when the service was done and it looked like new.
Michael Keen
Goo Roo
nsw
Soarer TT

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Thursday, November 27, 2008 - 06:21 pm, by:  Michael Keen (Spoilt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

it could be oil control rings as well.. if you engine brake down a hill, and then stomp it, does it blow smoke then? if so valve seals for sure.take of your engine breather tube and fit a catch can, or just take of hose and start it and see how much comes out.. there might be a lot of blow by which is rings. cheers
Cameron Laufer
TryHard
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T

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Thursday, November 27, 2008 - 08:56 pm, by:  Cameron Laufer (Ivboost) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

By the way you can change Valve stem seals with out taking off the head
George Funa
TryHard
NSW
Soarer TT

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Thursday, November 27, 2008 - 10:41 pm, by:  George Funa (Fun001) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

James, my car has the same issues as yours. Get your car tuned. Also use a thicker oil. It should be ok
Steven Nanevski
Goo Roo
New South Wales
My TT is for sale

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Thursday, November 27, 2008 - 10:55 pm, by:  Steven Nanevski (Imprestik) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


James Harris wrote on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 05:36 pm:

It has idled differently since i had my EMS STINGER installed, it is a little lumpy and uneven. Also as ive mentioned before on this forum ever since having the computer installed ive been getting "engine electrical fault" which i think has something to do with requiring a new ignitor.





James Harris wrote on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 05:46 pm:

do you reckon if the ignition cam gear was adjusted during a tune it would go into "limp mode"?





Firstly who did the tune??

Secondly what degrees did they set the exhaust cam gear......

I pretty much bet you that the person who tuned your car has set the exhaust cam gear to something crazy like -8 degrees minimum. I had the exact same problem when I first got my e-manage ultimate tuned and my cam gear set. The exhaust cam gear was set to -10 degrees. It was a dog in the bottom end, but mid range and top end were crazy. The car was a absolute biatch to start, took at least 5 to 6 cranks to fire up, and when it fired up it would always display the error message for about 5 seconds.

If thats the case, reset exhaust cam gear to something a little more sensable, but damn the car sounded so fat on idle, and I had 264 intake and exhaust cams on too......
James Harris
Goo Roo
QLD
XTR T-66 Turbo

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Thursday, November 27, 2008 - 11:57 pm, by:  James Harris (Haro) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Steve,

The car was tuned BEFORE i did all the recent work on it (which included installing the new cam gears).

Lew dialled in -5 on the exhaust straight up as he reckons it wouldnt cause any problems.

I do plan on booking her in for a tune next week though, and ill probably change the oil also.

WHat should i go with now? Penrite 30 or something like

30/75? im a lil clueless regarding oil choice.
Blake Gloyn
TryHard
manawatu
soarer JZZ30 TT

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Friday, November 28, 2008 - 07:18 am, by:  Blake Gloyn (Blakenz) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the EMS computers in the past could not control the stepper motor idle control that toyota use. can the stinger? this could be the cause of different idle.
Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder

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Friday, November 28, 2008 - 03:39 pm, by:  Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


James Harris wrote on Thursday, November 27, 2008 - 11:57 pm:

Lew dialled in -5 on the exhaust straight up as he reckons it wouldnt cause any problems.




-5 as in 5 notches retarded ? That would total 10 degrees... As all the cam gears i know of are :- 1 Notch = 2 degrees .

If thats the case, adjust it back to between 2 and 3 nothces for -5 degrees retard in total.
Nathan Sheehan
Tinkerer
WA
Soarer TT Manual

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Friday, November 28, 2008 - 03:46 pm, by:  Nathan Sheehan (Soarermad1) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"o and your car going to die, i think you should self me your ems..

hehe na jjk.

i need a ecu.."

HAHA
James Harris
Goo Roo
QLD
XTR T-66 Turbo

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Friday, November 28, 2008 - 06:46 pm, by:  James Harris (Haro) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hmmm im pretty sure we dialled it in correctly.. but i will check it i guess. That wouldnt make any smoke though would it ?

The idle really isnt too bad hey, it seems to have its good and bad days but overall its not really painfull or anything.

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