Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 10:53 am, by: Trent Toovey(Trent91)
just got my new steel wheeled turbos fitted with my custom dumps and screamer pipes love them she goes on the dyno tomorrow to see what i can get out of her
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 - 09:52 pm, by: Paul Ince(Incey)
Guys, Just got this quote. Do you reckon it sounds reasonable?
Yes we can high flow CT12A turbochargers to about 280HP each. It will cost you $950 each turbo to high flow with steel wheels and $100 per set of oil feeding line and drain adaptor.
Comments appreciated Cheers
Scott Wilkes DieHard Tasmania 92 TT Factory Manual
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 - 10:20 pm, by: Barry Main(Barry_m)
Ask if the turbine wheel and shaft are Chinese. If so, stay clear.
Does the job include balancing the shafts and hi-flow compressors as a unit? These components usually come balanced individually, but it's always nice to re-balance them as a rotating assembly.
Oh, and one other thing. In almost all CT12A's the wastegate seal is usually cracked. This isn't hugely important unless the crack is huge, but be aware that ou are always going to be bleeding off a little bit of boost and losing that little bit of power.
Does the job include a complete bearing kit?
What is the O.D. of the hi-flow compressor. Needs to be at least 58 mm on the OD, and can be as much as 60 mm.
$950 parts and labour? Not cheap, but not expensive either. If the job is done properly you won't think it's the same car. It'll fly and unlike trying to get big power out of a single, you won't have any more lag than standard. Plus, the cops won't be able to pick anything.
While you've got the turbos off the car, it's not a bad idea to get a die grinder out and open up as well as match up all the areas in the exhaust side. This doesn't make up for the fact that the factory dump system is restrictive (and has to be for the sake of making it neat, inexpensive and compact from the factory) but it does help a little.
Ask if the overhaul shop can check that the wastegate actuators are both working and both actuate at the same pressure.
Good idea to replace all the external gaskets, and these can be obtained in kit from Toyota. I've got the part number somewhere. I'll see if I can find it.
Be prepared to hit boost really early. You'll need an FCD.
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 - 10:31 pm, by: Paul Ince(Incey)
Hey Barry, Its like you are speaking a different language hahaha, I really don't have any experience with this at all. I have seen your other posts about the steel wheel upgrades and cleaning up the ports...very informative I think the info I read said they come with new gaskets and seals but I'd have to double check I'm also close to getting some lews dumps to go with the upgraded turbos so hopefully should see huge differences. Can you give me a list of questions to email off to the workshop? I can then post responses up here for comment. Meanwhile I'll read your post a few more times to see if I can learn something thanks
Tuesday, June 09, 2009 - 11:35 pm, by: Barry Main(Barry_m)
Paul, use my post as the basis for working out some questions.
For example: 1/ In which country were the steel-wheeled shafts made?
The only ones I know of now are made in the US. I'm about to start importing some...as soon as the exchange rate gets a bit more favourable, so if you want to wait a week or two I'll try to work out a price for the parts - 2 x wheel and shaft, 2 x hi-flow compressors, 2 x bearing overhaul kits. These are the internal bearings and seals, not the ones that you need to bolt the turbos up to the manifold. That's the kit that you have to buy from Toyota, probably $200 the set or a little less.
Then all you'd have to do would be to take your old turbos to a turbo shop nearby and ask them how much they'd charge to strip and assemble with your parts. Ask whether they would balance the shaft and compressor as a reciprocating unit. Also ask whether they can check the wastegate actuators and repair them if necessary.
2/ What is the od of the hi-flow compressor?
3/ What is the breakup between parts and labour?
That sort of thing...
If you're getting some good dumps, that'll take care of the restrictive aspects of the factory system but you'll probably then need to make some mods to your exhaust system further downstream. I've never seen Lews dumps, so I'm just guessing but I'm figuring that if he's making them flow properly they'll mate up to the exhaust system in a slightly different place and you'd need to adapt or modify the downstream section. Lew should be able to give you a rough idea of what's needed. No use going for good dumps if the rest of the system isn't flowing freely, but you'll see from many other posts on Soarer Central that a new exhaust system taxes both the pocket and the brain (trying to work out what flows best, sounds best and whether to go for twin outlets, single outlets, etc); so that's another thing to think about and another cost. If you stick with the standard system and just modify it, you save that headache.
There's a really good tutorial around on how to take your turbos off the car. It's originally from a UK Soarer site, but it's been widely copied.
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 07:22 am, by: Paul Ince(Incey)
Hi Barry, Here's the list I sent off
1. Are the turbine wheel and shaft chinese, american or made somewhere else 2. Does the quote include balancing the shafts and high flow compressors as a unit 3. Is a complete bearing kit included 4. What is the O.D. of the high flow compressor 5. Are you able to check if both wastegate actuators are working at the same pressure 6. Approximately how long would it take
I did see the tutorial you mention but it is not something I would attempt. I have a very good exhaust already so the last restriction on that side is the stock dump.
There is no one in Cairns who wants to touch the turbo upgrade. They are happy to fit and tune but thats about it. So I have to mail a set away to be done.
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 08:36 am, by: Cihan Aday(Cihan)
Paul i have a set of hiflow & steel wheeled stockies for sale, as new with under one hundred kms on them. Rebuilt by ATP in Melbourne. NO surging at light throttle like 42/60 compressors or larger do. They spool and drive like stock turbo's but have a lot more top end potential. http://soarercentral.com/sc-forum/messages/292/285669.html?1241432606
Building hiflows isn't as simple as putting together a 'kit'. There's milling work to do which is labor intensive and expensive.
Tao's option look like its replacing the CHRA completely which is why new oil feed/return provisions would be necessary.
I can also assure you that 280hp compressors fall into surge territory, and will be down on midrange torque considerably because of the apparent compressor efficiency vs flow discrepancy.
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 08:53 am, by: James Harris(Haro)
huh? Had enough Trent !?
What happened to your latest soarer, did it die a horrible death like your last one?
Is that old cruiser that wicked thunderbird you were talking bout a while back, man that thing looked bloody hot. If so (even if not) post up some pics and info on your new ride buddy.
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 12:59 pm, by: Ryan Rankovic(Ryan1j)
can also assure you that 280hp compressors fall into surge territory, and will be down on midrange torque considerably because of the apparent compressor efficiency vs flow discrepancy.
surging on light throttle? you mean compressor surge or something else, Cihan?
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 03:55 pm, by: Paul Ince(Incey)
OK I got my response
1. Are the turbine wheel and shaft chinese, american or made somewhere else They are made by Mellet from UK.
2. Does the quote include balancing the shafts and high flow compressors as a unit 3. Is a complete bearing kit included
That includes a brand new CHRA unit. means complete every thing except your comp and turbine housings.
4. What is the O.D. of the high flow compressor Compressor we use is a T28 60mm 62Trim wheel.
5. Are you able to check if both wastegate actuators are working at the same pressure Well be able to
6. Approximately how long would it take It will take roughly a week to do both turbos.
Cihan, you were right about the replacement, is that a good or bad thing? I looked at your for sale post. It works out a bit dearer eh? Can you sell me on the benefit of yours over the quoted rebuild. I don't understand how the 280hp turbo will cause surge where your 270hp ones don't. Are there other differences or can you give me some information which will explain this. Also I missed out on the dump pipe, did you have a non stock one with your turbo's cihan?
Trent, Two weeks with the steel wheels and you got rid of the car???? I hope I don't get sick of mine that quick when I get it done.
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 05:17 pm, by: Daniel Clarke(Dieseltrain)
Paul . I would say you would probably be the 1st person to use Hypergear for the Ct12a conversion . You can search the forums for info on their turbos, some good, some bad .
Scott Wilkes DieHard Tasmania 92 TT Factory Manual
Thursday, June 11, 2009 - 12:10 pm, by: Cihan Aday(Cihan)
Most hiflows mentioned here will surge at low RPM, its a given. Garrett 41mm-45mm turbo's aren't specifically 'designed' to be used as twins on a small engine. You put a single 43mm turbo on a 2 litre 4 cyl with a 0.6 rear housing and a 30mm nozzle diameter to make 200rwkw. Generic hiflows usually mean squeezing 41-43mm compressors into ct12a comp housings, retaining the std 0.45 a/r rear housing and probably a 21mm or smaller nozzle diameter. They come on 'ok' but are usually operating out of spec / on the left of the compressor map with a stock engine. Part of the issue with two turbo's is that effective intake flow halves, even though pressure ratio / boost remains the same. That makes it hard to match a set of compressors to the engine.
You will generally make more torque with stock turbo's over 43/60mm compressors. Simply because the larger compressors aren't in efficiency when the 1J is (by design) making most of its torque. The situation is added to when you combine ball bearing chra's into the equation. When big compressors in standard housings are concerned, there is always an imbalance between the exhaust side and intake side sizing so the compressor is usually operating out of efficiency (too small a rear housing and nozzle diameter bringing them online early).
If you're going to go hiflows in standard housings, the biggest i would recommend is as big as HKS applied to their 1JZ specific T3G kits. They're 260-270hp rated depending on what text book you read, and will do 330rwkw as proven at a recent dyno day. I would also suggest that the standard exhaust manifolds be ported and the turbine nozzle be opened up 5-10% in diameter to give 11-22% better flow to help control reversion.
In either case a 1J will benefit from a set of camshafts in conjunction with hi flow compressors to help bring them into efficiency over 4,000rpm. Technically thats where big twins will shine. A while back i was on the dyno with a customers car that has t3g's and hks 264 cams, it continued making power to 7,700rpm no problem. If you don't mind a drop in midrange and the occasional surging up hills at light throttle etc, hiflows are for you. Adding cams intensifies the issue as low rpm flow drops but mid-topend improves leaps and bounds as the compressors come into their sweet spot (rev's + head flow = power)
Previous
Must get 1 setup next time we have 1 in Sydney .
