Soarer Central: Archive through July 17, 2010

Soarer Central Mechanical - TT Turbo Talk 1JZ modification guide Archive through July 17, 2010

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Cihan Aday
Moderator
etuner.com.au
JZZ30

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Monday, October 13, 2008 - 01:35 pm, by: Cihan Aday (Cihan)

The most powerful example is the T04Z

Full writeup over summer.

Pricing
Pricing includes good quality, brand new parts, with all of your heat wrapping, mounts, silicon bits and good clamps etc for a reliable installation. Labour is not included in all prices, for example exhaust system - we're assuming the place that makes it will fit it at the same time.

Assumptions
All examples except the T04Z include SPB's (sophisticated piggyback) computers. All turbo's are using the dump pipe / exhaust / intake system / injectors / fuel pump setup that suit the peak power ouput shown.

Selected turbo's all use 0.8x rear housings.
CT12a's use dumps into 3"
T3G's use hks dumps into 3"
GT30R uses 3" dump
GT35R uses 3.5" dump
T04Z uses 4" dump

Using the graphs
Pick a power level, trace to a price or the most responsive turbo setup.

I know there are a lot of cheaper journal bearing turbo's out there that people are using - simply add a 1000 rpm and subtract $500-1000 from the total cost depending on your choice...

Full writeup will have graphs for exhaust system + fuel system + ignition system as well. Possibly even management.

Cihan Aday
Moderator
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JZZ30

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Monday, October 13, 2008 - 01:39 pm, by: Cihan Aday (Cihan)

Drew Rechner
TryHard
South Australia
JZZ30 TT

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Monday, October 13, 2008 - 05:54 pm, by: Drew Rechner (Drew1jz)

Nice write up Cihan, should be helpful to those looking at upgrading

Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NT
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

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Sunday, July 11, 2010 - 09:06 pm, by: Ben Lipman (Ben12a)

What ever happened to the full write up?

Layton Molenaar
Tinkerer
SA
Soarer + 96RZ6spd

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Sunday, July 11, 2010 - 09:27 pm, by: Layton Molenaar (Rbdestroyer)

12k for a gt35? wtf

Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NT
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

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Sunday, July 11, 2010 - 09:38 pm, by: Ben Lipman (Ben12a)

It's ironic you should pop up in here- I was actually looking to see if you had a build thread for your single...

Layton Molenaar
Tinkerer
SA
Soarer + 96RZ6spd

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Monday, July 12, 2010 - 12:38 am, by: Layton Molenaar (Rbdestroyer)

nah not really just had a thread on how to do it on a budget..dont believe me or just curious?

Aiden Cheese
DieHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30

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Monday, July 12, 2010 - 12:49 pm, by: Aiden Cheese (Chillpen)

I'm sure Ben is curious as he's looking at various options for upgrading some power on his track car specifically on a budget.

David Tra
Goo Roo
qld
AWD

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Monday, July 12, 2010 - 01:17 pm, by: David Tra (Bookie)

Believe or not, within the last 2years prices have dropped

Darren Bauer
Tinkerer
Victoria
Soarer TT

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Monday, July 12, 2010 - 06:13 pm, by: Darren Bauer (Dazmon)

Is that right; $7000 for CT12A's?

Cameron Laufer
DieHard
Queensland

Built 1.5j 425.8rwkw & LPG 1jzgte 204rwks @ 10psi

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Monday, July 12, 2010 - 07:00 pm, by: Cameron Laufer (Ivboost)

Darren it just goes to show that you and by the sound of it, a few others here have never built engine or know the cost involved!

Scott Wilkes
Goo Roo
Tasmania
92 TT Factory Manual, 70 HG GTS Monaro

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Monday, July 12, 2010 - 07:06 pm, by: Scott Wilkes (Scottywilkes)

7K for CT12s and that poweroutput isnt overboard, allthought it can be done cheaper.

Factor in dump pipes, exhaust, highflow cat, front mount intercooler, airfilter, injectors, fuelpump, sparkplugs, fuel, oils etc etc. It all adds up if you want to do it properly

Aiden Cheese
DieHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30

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Monday, July 12, 2010 - 09:03 pm, by: Aiden Cheese (Chillpen)

DIY is always a lot cheaper than asking someone else to do it for you.

Most places wouldn't work for free, and I can tell you after rebuilding several engines to prepare them for turbo-ing that its a very long slow process.

Example:

Turboing a toyota sera with a 5efe engine.

300 dollars for 4efte pistons (second hand)
180 for thicker headgasket
350 for stamping 4efte piston heads on 5efe piston rods plus cleaning the head while it's off and machining its face to make sure its perfectly flat still.
35 hours of labour acquiring the parts putting the parts together, pulling out the engine, putting the engine back in, and putting the engine together (which took ages of checking torque settings with a highly accurate digital torque wrench).

800 for emanage ultimate
5 hours of wiring including pulling out the dash and putting it back in

1500 dollars for second hand turbo off a wrx
0 dollars for second hand water to air intercooler
100 dollars for hosing and piping the water to the radiator
150 turbo manifold
20 hours of labour including creating mounting brackets in the engine bay for the intercooler, routing the pipes and securing the radiator, reorienting the turbo and cutting and re-flanging a manifold

Now I don't mean to be a stickler, but really that's just what it takes to turbo a car which didn't come with one. Not to mention it's done by amateurs so it'd take a bit longer. It doesn't sound too expensive but when you consider all things equally, you'll realise there's a lot of money involved in labour.

You'd pay 80+ dollars an hour at a mechanic (because they have costs of working to cover not to mention just their labour itself).

That's around the 60 hours of labour, or $4800 dollars. Now a mechanic would do it cheaper by being faster because he'd be more experienced for sure. So lets say closer to 3000 for labour.

So in other words parts were around $3380 and labour for putting them into a car would be around 3000. In other words you'd be at least looking at $6800 just to get some positive pressure into a 4cyl car without an exhaust. Might be another $1200-1800 including the dump.

And 80 dollars would be a steal. Because I'm not sure if you've ever talked to a mechanic about doing these kinds of mods, but most of them say "What car? Um no." and refuse you outright before you get more than a few words in the door. Because if they get half way and find that they can't complete it because it's a stupid idea then they're liable. Only a few businesses will do that kind of work and they're not the cheapest around. But as the adage says, you get what you pay for.

Anyway I'm not sure if those graphs include labour costs etc but I just figured I'd give you a rough estimate of the situation from how I see it. Just as a point of view.

Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NT
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

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Monday, July 12, 2010 - 09:42 pm, by: Ben Lipman (Ben12a)

Layton Molenaar wrote on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 12:38 am:
nah not really just had a thread on how to do it on a budget..dont believe me or just curious?

Aiden Cheese wrote on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 12:49 pm:
I'm sure Ben is curious as he's looking at various options for upgrading some power on his track car specifically on a budget.

Correct. I thought Layton had a thread on his build, but can't seem to find it.

I am considering a GT3076R if I go single, or pushing the twins with something like Jeff Bedsors mods over the summer holidays in the meantime (Low cost- I'll DIY)

Boris Siljanoski
Goo Roo
Western Australia
LS400 + Soarer.

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Monday, July 12, 2010 - 10:23 pm, by: Boris Siljanoski (Z2tt)

Going by that graph, the GT30 and GT35 are more responsive than T3G's?!

Cihan Aday
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etuner.com.au
JZZ30

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Monday, July 12, 2010 - 10:45 pm, by: Cihan Aday (Cihan)

Ben, if you know where to look and what to spend money on it can be done at basically half price. For example you could use a holset turbo, and a set of 440's with a fuel cut defender set to 4.3v. It would safely make 250-260rwkw with the OEM timing map at 15-psi and take a little more boost with octane booster. Add an emanage blue for timing control and driving the injectors a little harder - it'll probably crack 280-290rwkw with circuit reliability no problem.

The cost curve goes up steeply at some point with every build..

Things definitely come down in price, and its just relating to exchange rates and product pricing. For example, you can pick up an emanage ultimate and plugin for under 900, 2 years ago you'd be hard pressed to find the same thing for under 1300. Turbo's are cheaper because of Chinese competition.

Layton, there's a big difference between a 'big single' and lapping 600hp from 2.5 litres around a race track without it blowing up.

If you're paying RRP think of the basics to start with. For example a gt35r setup starts at 1600 for the turbo. If you're doing track work it'll need a quality wastegate that won't melt, something with a high temperature diaphragm $600. Oil, water lines and fittings, drain, feed, hard pipe, heat shielding $500. You could use cheap stuff, but get it too hot and there's oil on you front windscreen at 250kph, or worse its pumping the sump dry onto the ground and under your tyres. Blow off valve $150 - unless you want to buy a new turbo every few races, its a good idea for high boost + small displacement setups. Intercooler piping and fabrication. $800-1000 with silicon joiners and decent clamps. Alloy bends are $30-50 each, 3.5inch 90 degree 5 ply elbows are $90. After materials that leaves 400-450 for labour if you're conservative. Then find a decent intercooler or use an ebay special. Intake filter, 4inch pipe & alloy box fabricated for $400 if you're lucky, or don't use an airbox, just a pipe and $9 ebay pod filter. You could start with a cheap kit and change a few things also.. Exhaust system, quality 4 inch stainless bends are expensive. v-bands are $80-120 in 3-4inch. 2-5 inch stainless cones are expensive. Quality mufflers over $200 each. You can spend over $1000 on exhaust materials without ceramic coating anything, then pay someone to design cut and tig it. Or use mild steel and a friends workshop to fab one up yourself. Chinese exhaust manifold $250, heat wrap $100 turbo blanket $150. Flatten mating surface on exhaust manifold $60, modify and enlarge wastegate pipe to 2inch $100. Injectors. Fuel pump. Wiring. Computer - emanage blue? 300rwkw, the emanage will suffice $400, wire it in yourself. 600 tuning. What if your coilpacks are worn?

Do it all yourself and it still costs ~6-7 grand for a responsive TRACK-ABLE 300rwkw not including additional cooling, brakes, suspension or transmission upgrades. Use a quality exhaust manifold (+900), a haltech (+2500) and upgrade the ignition (+500) and its more like 9-11 grand for 320-330rwkw without touching the transmission or the rest of the car. 350kw? Add cams, and a reshim $1000 plus install labour 250.

What if the engine is a little tired?

Cihan Aday
Moderator
etuner.com.au
JZZ30

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Monday, July 12, 2010 - 10:46 pm, by: Cihan Aday (Cihan)

A GT30R with 0.8 rear is MUCH more responsive than T3G's.

So yes, going by that graph you'd be correct.

Layton Molenaar
Tinkerer
SA
Soarer + 96RZ6spd

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Tuesday, July 13, 2010 - 12:41 am, by: Layton Molenaar (Rbdestroyer)

Ohk yea did mine for about 2.5-3k i think i have a build list here

http://alscforum.com/discus/messages/120/19173.html?1261115666

Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NT
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

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Tuesday, July 13, 2010 - 04:50 pm, by: Ben Lipman (Ben12a)

Cheers Cihan.

As I have said all along I am researching. (that's code for I don't have any money)

I think the most likely way for me to go single is buy quality components over an extended period and then install them all myself. Once the parts are in, find someone to tune it (someone who understands the demands of circuit racing- not a high Hp number dyno champ). The good news is we are moving south again, so there will be a great deal more 'corporate knowledge' in my area next year.

I haven't given up on the idea of buying some second hand TT manifolds and porting them as Jeff has done. I like hands on work, and his approach was straight out of my textbook (I mean: hose, pipe, sandpaper and a drill- woot! That's me right there baby!)

Cihan Aday
Moderator
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JZZ30

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Tuesday, July 13, 2010 - 05:36 pm, by: Cihan Aday (Cihan)

Layton Molenaar wrote on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 - 12:41 am:
Ohk yea did mine for about 2.5-3k i think i have a build list here

Ahh yeah.. how much power does it make? Whats the response like compared to standard twins?
And how many laps has it done of your local circuit?
Intercooler and piping, exhaust system, fuel system, computer? How about all of that, or is it too expensive to take the next step...?

I see a lot of yap yap yap, but nothing to qualify any of it.

The fact of the matter is, a 2.5k bodge job is going to be slower than standard twins with the same money spent. You also run the risk of hurting yourself and others if something does go wrong when you decide to push it.

True story - 2JZ supra, t88 powered, 250-260kph on the back straight of Sandown pulling 7400rpm, driver lets go of the accelerator and the front main seal explodes from the oil pressure. Front windscreen and engine bay covered in oil. Lucky for him the t88 was a properly engineered Greddy kit, with ceramic heat coatings, exhaust wrap, beenie and shielding - so the fine oil spray had little chance of igniting on contact with the 700+ degree heat of an exposed dump pipe.

Reason for failure? Likely the ebay special undersized oil cooler and associated tubing causing excessive (not 1:1 with engine RPM and engine requirements) back-pressure on the oil pump, overwhelming the pressure bleed and pushing the seal out.

On that note there's a reason why toyota used hard oil feed and return lines. Also one more reason why standard twins are a very good option if you're doing track work on a budget. Free's up funds for safety - tyres / brakes / suspension / cage.

Scott Casey
TryHard
nsw
soarer v8

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Tuesday, July 13, 2010 - 07:18 pm, by: Scott Casey (V8soarer_1991)

cihan,

Some forms of said/told evidence/controversy for God's existence is the 10 commandments.

With Cihan you get 11

Keep the info coming

Matthew Crawford
DieHard
Victoria
JZA80 T88-38GK

Posts: 626
Reg: 03-2007

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Wednesday, July 14, 2010 - 03:34 pm, by: Matthew Crawford (Doink)

Cihan Aday wrote on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 - 05:36 pm:
True story - 2JZ supra, t88 powered, 250-260kph on the back straight of Sandown pulling 7400rpm, driver lets go of the accelerator and the front main seal explodes from the oil pressure. Front windscreen and engine bay covered in oil. Lucky for him the t88 was a properly engineered Greddy kit, with ceramic heat coatings, exhaust wrap, beenie and shielding - so the fine oil spray had little chance of igniting on contact with the 700+ degree heat of an exposed dump pipe

True indeed.

the cheap cooler means spending $500 on a modified racing oil pump with drilled relief to offset the issue.
don't go with cheap shortcuts if you're going to drive your car hard - it leads to potential brown pants situations