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Fabian Bordon
TryHard
VIC
TT

Posts: 269
Reg: 02-2007

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Saturday, May 28, 2011 - 02:39 am, by:  Fabian Bordon (Aether) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is anyone able to confirm if the timing set in the picture below is advanced or retarded for the exhaust cam, and also if the markings on JUN cams are 1 or 2 degrees per mark etc?


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Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder

Posts: 6313
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Saturday, May 28, 2011 - 08:00 am, by:  Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Looks like it is retarded 4 degrees . Retard = Left side of notch , Advance = Right side of Notch .

Each notch = 2 degrees .

Hope this helps .
Fabian Bordon
TryHard
VIC
TT

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Saturday, May 28, 2011 - 12:21 pm, by:  Fabian Bordon (Aether) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Daniel for clearing that up, as looking on the web I was getting different results for which way was for advancing and retarding the timing.
Scott Casey
DieHard
nsw
soarer v8

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Monday, May 30, 2011 - 06:34 am, by:  Scott Casey (V8soarer_1991) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

look what way the belts are turning while the car is started or stopped.

Daniel is right
Antonio Hunt
TryHard
NSW
TT

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Friday, June 03, 2011 - 03:56 pm, by:  Antonio Hunt (Carajo) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I thought turning the inside part clockwise was advanced? sorry guys but correct me if im wrong

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Fabian Bordon
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TT

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Friday, June 03, 2011 - 04:10 pm, by:  Fabian Bordon (Aether) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's where I have the confusion as the JUN cams have no 'A' or 'R', but others I have seen have, and I was under the impression that turning the inside slide clockwise as per Antonio's picture would be advancing it as well as the marking moves closer to the 'A' print? And by the looks of things that HKS cam is for a JZ motor?
Costa Tsimiklis
Goo Roo
Victoria
386.2 rwkw the old T51S setup - New Setup HKS T51R SPL -Going for 450rwkw on Pump Gas!

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Friday, June 03, 2011 - 04:32 pm, by:  Costa Tsimiklis (Driftshop) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the A-R is the spin direction that you use to dial in.

eg: move right, to get the retard.

IT spins clockwise, retard = lag, so if you spin right, the cam will be lagged.

Left = advance, eg: start sooner.

That's my logic anyhoo :-) I remember it is reverse to what it is printed.
Antonio Hunt
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NSW
TT

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Friday, June 03, 2011 - 05:45 pm, by:  Antonio Hunt (Carajo) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My logic was that the belt goes clockwise so if you move the inside clockwise it will be advance of tdc?
John O'Brien
Tinkerer
NSW
jzz30 TT

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Wednesday, June 22, 2011 - 08:59 am, by:  John O'Brien (Ziggy) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm with Antonio on this one. Seems to me that if you rotate the cam clockwise you are advancing the timing.
In the picture the mark on the outer is moved towards the 'A' side so I'm gonna throw a spanner in the works and say that pic shows 4 degrees advanced.
Aiden Cheese
DieHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30

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Friday, June 24, 2011 - 10:05 am, by:  Aiden Cheese (Chillpen) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

this pic


and this pic


Are not adjusted in the same way. The interior on the HKS is almost the whole pully except cog. The top pic is only moved from a section which is different.

So the top pic is retarded. The Cog Notches lag behind the pulley spinning compared to if it was centered.
Adrian McGuire
TryHard
Queensland
soarer 2.5 turbo

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Friday, June 24, 2011 - 10:19 am, by:  Adrian McGuire (Adro) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Im with Aiden on this one.}
Antonio Hunt
TryHard
NSW
TT

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Friday, June 24, 2011 - 02:05 pm, by:  Antonio Hunt (Carajo) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The belt is what is spinning the cams clockwise, the belt timing dosen't change from altering the cam gears. so when you turn the inside/cam clockwise of the mark on the cogs it is advancing the cam.
All cam gears are generally the same, including the above 2. They mainly consist of 2 parts, the cogs running off the belt and the inside that is attached to the cams. All that is different is which direction the belt runs on that particular model of engine.
Aiden Cheese
DieHard
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Soarer jzz30

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Friday, June 24, 2011 - 03:52 pm, by:  Aiden Cheese (Chillpen) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Antonio Hunt wrote on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 02:05 pm:

The belt is what is spinning the cams clockwise,


Ugh, right. Duh. Read that much and then hit myself on the forehead :-(:-(
John O'Brien
Tinkerer
NSW
jzz30 TT

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Sunday, June 26, 2011 - 11:14 pm, by:  John O'Brien (Ziggy) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Aiden Cheese wrote on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 10:05 am:


...Are not adjusted in the same way.





...err, I am sure they are. Cog is fixed - inside turns, bolts hold it together.
Aiden Cheese
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Sunday, June 26, 2011 - 11:23 pm, by:  Aiden Cheese (Chillpen) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Where they're measuring the A and R is in two different spots is how i meant that they're not adjusted in the same way. Therefore they can be misleading to compare two different designs closely.

Of course they can't be entirely different because they both do the same thing.

But because of exactly what i said, is why it's A anti-clockwise (depending how you consider anti clockwise, or which bit, so the outer bit moves anti-clockwise, the inside moves clockwise) and R clockwise (same thing).

By slowing the cam down in relation to the belt, you make it spin slower. For one brain fart I for some reason said it backwards.

Haha. My reasoning was right, my words were wrong.
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31

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Monday, June 27, 2011 - 09:57 am, by:  Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not slowing it down so much as changing the angle of the lobes compared to TDC on the crank - the cams still have to rotate once for every 1/2 revolution of the crank - no way around that! :-)
John O'Brien
Tinkerer
NSW
jzz30 TT

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Monday, June 27, 2011 - 05:20 pm, by:  John O'Brien (Ziggy) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The only reason I jumped into this thread is because I felt Fabian was being led astray.

Let's take it slow.

The cog part of the assembly is never adjusted. It is moved clockwise only by the belt and normally the mark is at the top when the Number 1 piston is at TDC.

These wheels have a centre part attached to the cam which can be adjusted.

Now given the engine spins clockwise, if you turned the centre part (attached to the cam remember) clockwise, it will mean the lobes are now in 'advance' of the mark on the cog. It is out of synch now because of the variable geometry of the wheel.
If you turned the inside part anticlockwise you are winding the cams back and if you go anticlockwise passed the centre mark on the scale you have now 'retarded' the valve timing.

Fabian's picture clearly shows that the inside of the adjustable cam wheel has been turned clockwise. The centre mark of the scale is to the right of the timing mark on the cog.

This would seem to indicate that the cam is now in advance of the crank.
Aiden Cheese
Goo Roo
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Soarer jzz30

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Monday, June 27, 2011 - 08:56 pm, by:  Aiden Cheese (Chillpen) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yup.
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31

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Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 06:56 am, by:  Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I concur - good description John.
John O'Brien
Tinkerer
NSW
jzz30 TT

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Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 10:44 am, by:  John O'Brien (Ziggy) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks matt, the only question now is...
why mess with the factory set valve timing in the first place?
Aiden Cheese
Goo Roo
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Soarer jzz30

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Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 10:52 am, by:  Aiden Cheese (Chillpen) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was speaking to Lew the other day and he basically described it like this;

You can only advance or retard the intake cams by 4 deg or else the ecu will go into limp mode. The exhaust though can be changed much more.

What he found in his testing was that changing the timing would literally move the power curve up or down the rev range. That is, you could get good boost, and higher flowing exhaust earlier to increase throttle response and lower down power or alternatively go for higher top end power with a bit more power-lag.

These are my words so don't quote lew using them. I wasn't exactly studying, I was chatting

I think he also mentioned that after dump replacement, changing the exhaust a little increases the plain efficiency as the freer flow of the dump will help spool the turbo earlier, and changing the cam can help improve that more without losing top end?

Not 100% sure. But in short the cam timing can increase power and change the power band. Tuning them is a normal part of improving the power of the car.
John O'Brien
Tinkerer
NSW
jzz30 TT

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Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 04:40 pm, by:  John O'Brien (Ziggy) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That makes sense.
With a freer flowing exhaust you could retard the exhaust cam and have more 'overlap' (when the inlet and outlet valves are both open).
Then the mass of air flowing down the exhaust will suck a bit more of the good stuff in through the inlet, assisting the suction of the descending piston and giving you a bit more bang for your buck.
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31

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Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 07:48 am, by:  Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cheaper and easier than getting re-profiled cam's I guess, probably not the same level of benefit though, as no ability to change duration and lift.

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