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Michael Long
TryHard
victoria
UZZ31

Posts: 271
Reg: 03-2006

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Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 06:58 pm, by:  Michael Long (Longy) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was wondering when you would show up Eric. I spend a fair bit of time on lextreme and was always on his side (in spirit, lol) but after work like this, and I seem to remember a built bottom end that was pretty crap-ola as well I dont think I will purchase any of lextreme built products, ever.

Greg, can I just ask why you went with buying the block, instead of getting the crank and sleeves and then have the work done over here?
Brett Harrison
TryHard
QLD
JZZ30

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Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 10:16 pm, by:  Brett Harrison (Bretto) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"with a bead of silicone around the top for added insurance"

Is this guy kidding ?
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455

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Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 11:49 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eric,

How should the sleeves be held in place?
Eric Lemoine
Tinkerer
Florida
V8TT

Posts: 16
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Monday, November 10, 2008 - 01:14 am, by:  Eric Lemoine (C0wboy) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Miles Baker wrote on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 11:49 pm:

Eric,

How should the sleeves be held in place?




He's using a dry sleeve (wet sleeves do away with the deck webbing altogether) so the should at at least be some of the original water jacket left over from the overbore for the sleeve to press into. Like a step for it to rest. Right now there's nothing up top really holding it in place other than a smattering of webbing. Let's say the motor is spinning at 8000rpm... how long is it until the sleeves begin to shift around enough to be out of spec? How long (assuming it's not the case now) would it be until coolant begins to pour into the bores because the sleeves are now at all different heights? Again, building the block in this manner isn't something that we have even considered because there's just nothing up top holding it together. Eventually something is going to shake itself apart.

Eric
Eric Lemoine
Tinkerer
Florida
V8TT

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Monday, November 10, 2008 - 01:21 am, by:  Eric Lemoine (C0wboy) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Brett Harrison wrote on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 10:16 pm:

"with a bead of silicone around the top for added insurance"

Is this guy kidding ?




So in other words, there's a couple thousands of an inch of silicon between the sleeve and the webbing? So the sleeves aren't exactly pressed in, are they. What happens when the motor, assuming it survives that long, sees temps of 1600 degrees? The silicon will burn away leaving a gap between the sleeve and the block. Now you have sleeves with air gaps rattling around like grannys false teeth in winter.

Eric
Gregg Holden
Trader
WA
Soarer UZZ31 Supercharged

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Monday, November 10, 2008 - 01:02 pm, by:  Gregg Holden (Xzotic) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for your input guys...

Eric I think they have agreed that the 7 thou difference for the sleeves is not acceptable and that the deck needs to be remachined at minimum.

The question is the integrity of the block even after that is done. I think a lot of what has been said and assessed locally is that there isn't enough holding the sleeves in place to assure it doesn't collapse under load.

I guess this is where it gets difficult. Lextreme maintain that the sleeves have been pressed in and that they do not have a top lip but are seated on a bottom step. Joe still maintains that even if the sleeves don't have a lip at the top there is still only what looks to be 5mm of block at the top holding the top of the sleeves.

I would have thought that they are using wet sleeves given that the bore has encroached into the water chamber where the new sleeves now reside? Or am I misinterpreting what you (eric) are saying.

The Solastic comment is interesting and in line with my thoughts yet their builder was quite happy to offer this information. Is there some other special solastic that is actually suited for this application?...I know locally, the guys are saying that the sleeves should have been welded together. Perhaps this can be done when they do the tear down/deck remachine to provide the ridgitity it needs?

I've asked some very specific questions back to Lextreme detailing all the concerns and I am waiting for a specific reply to each.

There seems to be quite a lot of varying opinions but most are negative except of course the comments back from Lextreme who believes that I am over reacting.

Remember Eric it's not as simple as just returning the block. I'm in Aus they are in the US. My car already has it's engine out. I need the fastest and best solution. If any fixes can be done here with Lextreme paying then that is the best way for this to go. However from the comments so far it still seems that just getting the tolerances right on the deck with the sleeves isn't going to be enough to guarantee longevity once it goes in. AFter all this is going to be supercharged with the existing M90 at 8psi initially and then with a twinscrew at 10psi later when I do phase 2 of this build. Lextreme knew this and built it with this in mind...

I just can't work out how it can be SO wrong....

(PS Michael - Hindsight it's a wonderful thing).
Eric Lemoine
Tinkerer
Florida
V8TT

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Monday, November 10, 2008 - 02:04 pm, by:  Eric Lemoine (C0wboy) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's a bad situation Greg, and I'm disheartend to see that it's a happening to someone who just wants a good strong engine. The best option I suppose would be to bring the motor to a trusted engine builder local to you and have the motor fixed and present Lextreme with the bill.

They're using a sleeve that comes into contact with coolant so in that respect it is a "wet" sleeve, however it sure appears that there's exceedingly little material holding it in place up top in the webbing. If they were going this route, why not go with an MID wet sleeve that does away with the webbing altogether?

The options that you have laid on the table seem fair. Possibly shaving the .007" off of the decks would solve the situation. Whether it will all hold together or not is another matter.

Eric
Gregg Holden
Trader
WA
Soarer UZZ31 Supercharged

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Monday, November 10, 2008 - 03:29 pm, by:  Gregg Holden (Xzotic) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cheers Eric...

Some more information has come to hand. Joe (my builder) has clarified that the solastic is at the bottom of the sleeves and seem to clearly indicate that solastic has been squeezed out from under the sleeves. This would tend to suggest that they put solastic on the bottom step first and then pressed in the sleeves.

Joe initially had a 1UZ head gasket when he first put on one of the heads and then realised of course that a 2UZ would be required due to the larger bore. He fitted this to the other head and then removed the first to take out the 1UZ gasket. He said that it was at this stage that he noticed the sleeves had dropped.

Therefore it is quite possible that the block was level when it was sent but due to the fact that Lextreme had put solastic under the sleeves before pressing this caused a layer of solastic that under pressure (From putting on the head) forced the sleeves down by around 4 thou extra.

Ironically, if Joe hadn't fitted the 1UZ gasket first he wouldn't have removed it to see the problem. The engine would have gone in and blown within minutes.

So it seems that the solastic under the sleeves is the root of the problem for the drop. What possible additional movement is unknown and still an area of concern.

He also reconfirmed that the sleeves are tapered at the top (no lip) and there is no solastic at the top so the top end is firm.

The biggest problem I have now is the cost that has been incurred just to get to this stage and the additional costs incurred in moving forward in any direction.

Out of curiousity, what would be the normal process for doing such a swap? Would builders normally check and test the block first before removing the engine from the donor? Would they normally put a head on and remove it to check deck/sleeve tolerances? I'm just interested as part of my problem relates to having the car stripped and the new block prepared with the sump etc before the problem was identified.

I'm just wondering if experienced builders would have found the problems before work had started on taking out the motor...?
Gregg Holden
Trader
WA
Soarer UZZ31 Supercharged

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Monday, November 10, 2008 - 06:28 pm, by:  Gregg Holden (Xzotic) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Far out - If i get any more suspected problems I'm going to go postal

Joe tells me that local builders that could do the remachining have seen sleeves 'APPEAR to look like they have dropped' on a Landcruiser that they had in before due to the fact the alloy has weakened (because of the larger bores) causing the alloy to actually stretch when the heads are bolted on.....

So which is is - the solastic, or stretching alloy!! If it's stretching alloy then there is no guarantee that it won't happen again after the remachine and the heads get reattached...

Great.
Paul Drane
DieHard
QLD
V8 Limited

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Monday, November 10, 2008 - 07:18 pm, by:  Paul Drane (Paulwd) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gregg, I cant offer any help but to my heart goes out you.
To really think you are on the right track to get what you want. just to end up in the sh=t.

Hope everything sorts it self out and Lextreme do the right thing for you.
Gregg Holden
Trader
WA
Soarer UZZ31 Supercharged

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Monday, November 10, 2008 - 08:21 pm, by:  Gregg Holden (Xzotic) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Paul... I'm almost to the point of having the car crushed and walking away...it's got that bad.

One more message has been sent to Lextreme which covers all the issues. I'm now not going to think anymore about it until I get a reply. It's put too many people through a lot of stress as it is.... Joe was ready to quit on it today due to tensions over the time/money already spent.... and my wife with her half finished kitchen...well I'm sure you get the picture...
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455

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Monday, November 10, 2008 - 08:32 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jesus mate I sympathise with ya. Way over my head now though.

Come on over and I'll weld you up some engine mounts and drop in a small block chev crate motor. Best I can suggest :-(
Eric Lemoine
Tinkerer
Florida
V8TT

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Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 09:49 am, by:  Eric Lemoine (C0wboy) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What's the latest on this?
Gregg Holden
Trader
WA
Soarer UZZ31 Supercharged

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Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 12:32 pm, by:  Gregg Holden (Xzotic) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I received a message from Lextreme this morning. He is waiting to obtain a report from his builder regarding all the issues I have presented to him.

He has committed to work with me to get to a solution including paying for the return of the block and remaking it IF this is deemed required. Given what I already know I doubt there is anyway that I would put this block in, even after remachining (due to the other potential issues).

He is currently not prepared to recognise the additional costs I have incurred with diagnosing the problems to date nor the time off the road with my car in pieces.

If the block does get returned then the turn around time better be fast. It took over six months for them to do the first build.

I gave the option for him to pay for a block to built here (save shipping both ways and the exchange rate would work in his favour). However he knows someone in air freight and I believe from his side it will be cheaper to return the block and for them to remake it. There are pros and cons either way...

Although this is relatively reassuring news in terms of getting the block sorted, it doesn't resolve the already blown budget and a car off the road that I cannot use. If the block has to go back then I'm almost forced to buy another car. I can't keep having my wife bundle 4 kids in the family car to take me to the train station and pick me up every day.

So that's the latest. All work has currently stopped. Now just waiting for the official assessment from his builder and confirmation of the next steps.

There is no positive solution for me now, only which is the best option to recover from a very bad situation.
Peter Nitschke
Junk Filterer
South Australia
UZZ30 UZZ31

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Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 12:36 pm, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Moped! :-)
Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder

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Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 02:12 pm, by:  Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just buy a $200 crapper .
Neil Griffiths
Goo Roo
NSW
I have a Cadillac and a Supercharged Manual V8

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Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 06:57 pm, by:  Neil Griffiths (Aussiesc) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gregg,
Get Joe to put your old engine back in, mount the Twin upto it, ( get all this sorted out ) Run 15psi tuned on 98 ( I forget what ECU you have in it )As with 15psi on the Twin WILL put a smile back on ya face mate :-)
All this while waiting for the block to be rectified.

I must admit, when I seen the first pics of the cylinder walls being machined out, It sent shivers up my spine,hahahaha ( If it was that easy , Toyota would have done it for the 2UZ & 3UZ )

You do realize you will be loosing a LOT of cooling from the oversized bores. Under NA, this would not be as bad, but the amount of boost you wish to eventually dump into this engine will matter.
Gregg Holden
Trader
WA
Soarer UZZ31 Supercharged

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Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 01:54 am, by:  Gregg Holden (Xzotic) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Neil - I wish you were over here in Perth.....!! Why don't I pay to fly you over for a 'working holiday'!! You can sort out all my sh1t and then some...(If you can build the wife's kitchen as well I'll consider adding you to my Will!)

Your words "you do realise he's just a chiro' now haunt me every night....

Peter - Yeah I can just see myself on a moped...NOT!

Eric - I'm still waiting 'official' word....
Lew Radbourn
Trader
Queensland / Gold coast
jzs147 93 TT / uzz30 93'/

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Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 08:35 am, by:  Lew Radbourn (Marlew) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Greg another thing is E85 will be available at the pumps next year and it will help run things alot cooler
SA guys and Sydney guys have all ready got it available but us guys furter away have to wait.
I am not sure what has to be changed to use it But Neil will let us know in due time (may be)hahahahhaha
Dave Rose
DieHard
wa
uzz31 v8

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Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 10:33 am, by:  Dave Rose (Sand_groper) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is on ebay Gregg vvti +5 speed auto $2500
Upload
Neil Griffiths
Goo Roo
NSW
I have a Cadillac and a Supercharged Manual V8

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Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 06:18 pm, by:  Neil Griffiths (Aussiesc) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I will have the VVT-i V8 running some time in the new year running on the Adaptronic ECU. I have modified the throttle so far.

I think the above engine was Lews who then sold it onto Andrew @ Richwood.


5 Speed auto is only good for door stopper at the moment.

Gregg,
I CAN build kitchens,,hahahahha I LOVE working with wood.

If you want to send me your blower setup, I will set it all up for you then ship back ready to run if you want ?
I would even install it on the SIlV8 and show some Dyno Figures and run a 1/4 with it on.

Up to you mate :-)

Hopefully I can show you what 15 - 20psi of Non Cooled Boost can pull by December, Using the 2.3ltr on its New Manifold. :-)
David Phan
Tinkerer
California
Built 1UZFE With Garrett GT40

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Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 02:34 pm, by:  David Phan (Lextreme) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We are working very hard trying to solve this issue. Gregg and I have been in contact daily ever since. I am not perfect and my builder is not perfect also, but we will get this problem fix.

Eric Lemoine (aka Cowboy Bebop),
We had our differences in the past. We agreed and we made up. I considered you were one of my friends even though we don’t see eyes to eyes. You recently purchased some parts from me also. Did take your money and ran away? Matter of fact you use my parts (Forged H Beam Rods) in one of your new line of products. I am just shock that would say things like that about me. When you emailed me about forgetting our conflicts and I trusted you but I didn’t realize you would go behind and post negative things about me. It really shows how classy you really are.
Gregg Holden
Trader
WA
Soarer UZZ31 Supercharged

Posts: 960
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Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 02:01 am, by:  Gregg Holden (Xzotic) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK, Eric clearly there is a bit of rift between you and David which I don't want to get into right now. I appreciate your support given the circumstances but I also don't feel it is appropriate to start a flame war with David.

David - I think it is appropriate that you don't do the same either.

The situation is bad enough without having more people getting agro with each other!

David has come to the party and will be paying for the block to be shipped back and rebuilt (as advised today). He is organising this as I type. He has also committed to resolving the issues before resending the block back including running up the engine to test it appropriately.

I think it is only fair to let the next steps occur to see if we can get this situation resolved. Yes, I've been put out above and beyond just getting the block sorted however the transaction isn't closed as yet and in David's credit he hasn't closed the door on the issue.

Don't get me wrong. As you can tell I am very dissatisfied with the situation to date, however I think it is appropriate to let Lextreme take the necessary actions to rectify the situation. As they are now doing this it would probably be most appropriate for all parties to stop passing judgement until the block is returned.

So let's leave any comments between you guys for now and get to the task in hand which is a passion I believe we all share regardless of personalities and disputes to date....and that is let's get a working 5.2l stroker motor humming with a twin screw charger in a Soarer....If nothing else I'm sure we ALL would like to see the successful outcome...
Eric Lemoine
Tinkerer
Florida
V8TT

Posts: 22
Reg: 01-2007

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Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 09:12 am, by:  Eric Lemoine (C0wboy) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agreed. Cheers to your resolution being laid out and I sincerely hope that it's worked out quickly and in a professional manner.

Eric
Ryan Allen
Newbie
Florida
SC400 V8TT

Posts: 1
Reg: 11-2008

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Monday, November 17, 2008 - 01:27 am, by:  Ryan Allen (Sc400tt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good Day to all. I have not posted on this forum before, but after reading this thread, I want to post up a short note of my thoughts here.

Gregg, nice build plan. I absolutely love to see every owner set up and build their V8's for forced air...

If any of you are familiar with me, I have been working on my SC400 TT V8 project for over 3.5 years. I have also run into many challenges as detailed in my thread. I expect to have my car running within the next 30 days...Cross your fingers!!

Gregg, I see that you and David have apparently worked out an initial plan of fixing this problem you are facing with your Lextreme block. That is good news.

I feel compelled to write of my personal experiences with David, aka Lextreme, to simply note that I do believe David will make good with you on his product. I believe this because I have dealt with David now for approximately 4 years, and I can say that he has always done everything he told me he would do in a timely manner. I have bought several parts from him, and I have referred him to several others, and he has always done each one right. So, if past experience is an indicator of David's integrity, then I believe you have nothing to worry about with him getting this muffed up block issue resolved.

I also want to state that I have dealt with Eric as well, and he too, has done all that he said he would do.

I hope my first post on this wonderful forum has helped. I also hope all gets resolved quickly for you, and that you will soon be posting up pics of you grinning from ear to ear while we hear your beasty V8 growling in the background...

Ryan
Don Bagnall
Moderator
New Zealand
Mercedes Benz SLK230 Kompressor

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Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 03:40 pm, by:  Don Bagnall (Baggs) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for that Ryan, and a warm welcome to Soarer Central
Gregg Holden
Trader
WA
Soarer UZZ31 Supercharged

Posts: 979
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Friday, December 19, 2008 - 12:50 am, by:  Gregg Holden (Xzotic) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK, thought I would give you guys an update.

After much more discussion with David we agreed that the best outcome given the situation to date was to process a full refund and have the block returned to Lextreme.

We agreed on the date of the refund and David came through and transferred the money in full on the day agreed.

This has clearly been a frustrating experience from the get go, however I do sincerely believe that what ever caused the sleeve tolerances to go out of whack is something that Lextreme will seek to resolve when they get the block back and I'm sure David will have eventual success in getting it resolved and working back in the USA.

Putting aside all the issues to date and the duress endured to one side - I have to say that I'm very impressed at least with the offer from David for a full refund and then actually completing the transaction.

As a parts business owner myself I know how difficult it is to cover refunds and returns from a financial perspective however this is essential in maintaining excellent customer service and referrals. David has shown that he shares the same principles even when the sum to be refunded is extremely considerable. For this alone, I give the guy huge props from a customer service perspective and doing the right thing at the end of the day.

Of course (even with the current exchange rate) I'm still out of pocket due to the additional work that was required when the difficulties arose and the initial duties and GST paid. However I can at least now move forward with using the money to work my existing block locally before it goes back finally into the car with the twinscrew.

This at least gives me a new path and direction into 2009 which I hope will end with a pleasing result.

So thanks for everyone's input and comments. I think it is fair to say that Lextreme's integrity remains intact and I sincerely wish David well in resolving the issues so he can show the worldwide community what he can achieve. He certainly has the drive and passion to do so.

Cheers
Gary Redman
TryHard
NSW
UZZ31

Posts: 169
Reg: 09-2005

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Friday, December 19, 2008 - 10:08 am, by:  Gary Redman (Gary) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great news Gregg. I was worried for you for a while, especially when you might have been dealing with another country's regulations when it comes to consumer law. This is by far the best outcome you could have expected as that block would have been too suspect to have proceeded any further. Good luck with the next build.

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