Hey guys just ordered a custom set of cams from kelford along with upgraded valve springs just wondering on a v8 how far interms of horse power can 440cc injectors be push.
Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 08:29 am, by: Cihan Aday(Cihan)
Mick, 6x440 is doing 290-300rwkw on 1JZ/2JZ's alike. More like 80-85hp an injector.
Depends on how efficient the supercharger/turbo setup is. If its not efficient (roots blower / non intercooled) or AFR's need to be rich (in the 11s), then the alternative i mentioned (550's) is probably a better idea.
400rwkw is a big number from the 1UZ, unless you're doing it with efficiency its hard to get near that figure because other factors get in the way.
Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 08:48 am, by: Damian Ware(Frozenpod)
Humm I think your math is wrong using standard rail pressure.
I doubt 440cc can support 290-300rwkw on a 1jz without increased rail pressure as I know a number of people that had to switch to larger injectors ie 550's when going over 260rwkw. Even using that figure of 290rwkw and switching from 6 to 8 cylinders they are not going to cut it.
According to that math on a 8 cylinder engine with the same efficiency they will support 386rwkw.
Remember the 1uz will not be producing power as efficiently and will have extra load compared with a turbo car ie driving the supercharger which will be around 50kw pending exact supercharger used, rpm of the blower, air flow and boost.
This will be similar to a turbo car producing 450rwkw and you will have to size injectors accordingly.
Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 08:57 am, by: Daniel Clarke(Dieseltrain)
Damian, IM running stock 380 injectors and make 260rwkw @ 17.5psi ( maxxing them out ) . Ive seen 440's on a 1jz making 285rwkw with more headroom . Also seen 650's make 307rwkw at only 60-65% duty cycle .As long as a rising Reg FPR is uses it shouldnt be an issue . As for each psi of boost the rail pressure is increased 1psi also .
I think Gianni is running about 10-14psi of boost, so i maybe his calcs are running off that extra 10-14psi of rail pressure as well ?
Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 09:21 am, by: Damian Ware(Frozenpod)
Standard regs increase fuel pressure about 1psi per 1psi of boost as you have said.
When you say maxing them out what is the duty cycle your injectors are running at.
I consider 80% duty cycle to be maximum for long term use, this is what I have read many times over even though some tuners are prepaired to push the boundries to 90%.
Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 02:48 pm, by: Cihan Aday(Cihan)
Considering Toyota OEM 1JZ ECU's push the factory yellow top side feed injectors up to %95 @ 4.30v map input in normal weather and up to %100 (20ms+) with intake temp sensor feedback or knock feedback - i have a hard time believing %80-85 is the limit for longevity.
Never seen a yellow top let go unless its been physically removed and re-installed months later. Most are going strong after 15+ years of service.
Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 03:32 pm, by: Damian Ware(Frozenpod)
Interesting, I wonder how many people have actually measured the duty cycle.
I have had a OEM 1uz injector fail and I was running up to 80% duty cycle. So given what I have read agrees with 80-85% as a reliable maximum I wouldn't push this figure.
What is the boost level at 4.3V on the factory map sensor, isn't that about 15psi. Given the factory boost is about 9-10psi you are not seeing 95% duty cycle from a stock car.
I was also under the impression from my previous testing that the factory map sensor boost cut was set at about 4.3V (maybe this is why the factory boost cut is set at this level to prevent burning out the injectors) and I have read some people are hitting boost cut with a FCD set to 4.1V and have had to reduce it further to prevent boost cut.
What is the 1jz ECU duty cycle output with the map sensor output at 4.1V or 4.0V?
For some reason as the components age the ECU's are also having a tendency to run richer than they I expect they did fresh from the factory.
I have seen ECU's running noticeable richer in open loop ie up to 1 AFR than they should compared to a good ECU and once repaired they are back to running a much more reasonable AFR.
I have also seen earthing problems change the AFR to run richer again buy up to 1 full AFR so I am not convinced that for 15 years toyota were running 95% duty cycle the OEM injectors.
Given Daniel's experience and yours it could also be that the 380cc's are freakishly tough?
damien i wouldnt mind that program if you have it handy.
the car will be set to 18psi when the new cams go in. i personally dont think i will see above 460-480rwhp. I also have a snow performance boost cooler so the methanol should help the injectors out. From what im I have read the 440s should be on their limit but ok. I do have a rising rate reg so that will made a difference.
Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 10:32 pm, by: Cihan Aday(Cihan)
Sounds tough Gianni, all the best. I think you're on the money with a rising rate reg and 440's.
Damien, at 4.1v it is still over 85% by 5500rpm. 4.3v corresponds to 13.8psi which is where i've measured the injector output duration drop to 0. It can go a little higher before cutting because there's a trigger delay, but thats the limit in my experience.
Boost cut is at 4.32v or so, and there's no need to clamp any lower than that with a FCD or Emanage Blue - only the Emanage ultimate (can need as low as 3.9v to function properly because of design limitations when functioning with Toyota ECU's).
You're on to something RE old OEM ECU's, i've seen a lot of inconsistency amongst the 60 odd 1J powered cars i've tuned with them still in place.
Wednesday, April 08, 2009 - 08:53 am, by: Damian Ware(Frozenpod)
I just ran through the calculator and if I have used it correctly with no rising rate reg maximum engine power is about 500kw.
Taking into account driveline loss it should be good for 400rwkw excluding the supercharger.
With about 50kw required to drive the blower without a rising rate reg you will only have enough fuel for about 350rwkw but a rising rate reg should get you there.
I also believe the calculator is using 90% duty cycle.