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Gianni Matrogiannis
TryHard
nsw
SC400 V8

Posts: 247
Reg: 08-2005

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Saturday, April 04, 2009 - 05:05 pm, by:  Gianni Matrogiannis (Gianni) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey guys just ordered a custom set of cams from kelford along with upgraded valve springs just wondering on a v8 how far interms of horse power can 440cc injectors be push.
Nathan Richardson
TryHard
N.T.
UZZ 32 #445 (V8 Supercherged 5Speed)

Posts: 167
Reg: 02-2006

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Saturday, April 04, 2009 - 05:59 pm, by:  Nathan Richardson (Richtheblack) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Someone can correct me if Im wrong, but as a rule of thumb, I believe for every 75hp require an additional 100cc of injector flow.
Cihan Aday
Moderator
etuner.com.au
JZZ30

Posts: 2821
Reg: 07-2005

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Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 10:28 am, by:  Cihan Aday (Cihan) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good for 380-400rwkw with an efficient turbo / supercharger setup at 1:1 fuel pressure.

Gianni i think 550cc 13B rotary injectors fit in the 1UZ if you can get your hands on them mate.
Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder

Posts: 4849
Reg: 03-2006

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Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 05:49 pm, by:  Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If they are Top feeds Cihan is talkin about, there is a guy who is sellin some on the Supraforums .
Gianni Matrogiannis
TryHard
nsw
SC400 V8

Posts: 248
Reg: 08-2005

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Monday, April 06, 2009 - 06:15 pm, by:  Gianni Matrogiannis (Gianni) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

cihan are you sure about the 380-400 rwkw figure. if thats right then ill be on the border but should be ok.
Damian Ware
DieHard
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 878
Reg: 10-2005

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Monday, April 06, 2009 - 08:02 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Given you are running a crank driven supercharger I think it will not be quite at that rwkw figure.

There are some injector sizing calculators online.

I have a really good one on my other comp that you can adjust fuel pressure and piles of other variables I can send it to you.
Cihan Aday
Moderator
etuner.com.au
JZZ30

Posts: 2822
Reg: 07-2005

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Monday, April 06, 2009 - 09:14 pm, by:  Cihan Aday (Cihan) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gianni, 440 x 8 will do 380rwkw comfortably especially if you can bump up the rail pressure.
Mick Mielczarek
TryHard
qld
v8

Posts: 222
Reg: 07-2006

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Monday, April 06, 2009 - 10:12 pm, by:  Mick Mielczarek (Eta04) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

440 are about 57hp each
Cihan Aday
Moderator
etuner.com.au
JZZ30

Posts: 2824
Reg: 07-2005

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Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 08:29 am, by:  Cihan Aday (Cihan) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mick,
6x440 is doing 290-300rwkw on 1JZ/2JZ's alike.
More like 80-85hp an injector.

Depends on how efficient the supercharger/turbo setup is. If its not efficient (roots blower / non intercooled) or AFR's need to be rich (in the 11s), then the alternative i mentioned (550's) is probably a better idea.

400rwkw is a big number from the 1UZ, unless you're doing it with efficiency its hard to get near that figure because other factors get in the way.
Damian Ware
DieHard
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 879
Reg: 10-2005

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Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 08:48 am, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Humm I think your math is wrong using standard rail pressure.

I doubt 440cc can support 290-300rwkw on a 1jz without increased rail pressure as I know a number of people that had to switch to larger injectors ie 550's when going over 260rwkw. Even using that figure of 290rwkw and switching from 6 to 8 cylinders they are not going to cut it.

According to that math on a 8 cylinder engine with the same efficiency they will support 386rwkw.

Remember the 1uz will not be producing power as efficiently and will have extra load compared with a turbo car ie driving the supercharger which will be around 50kw pending exact supercharger used, rpm of the blower, air flow and boost.

This will be similar to a turbo car producing 450rwkw and you will have to size injectors accordingly.
Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder

Posts: 4858
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Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 08:57 am, by:  Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Damian, IM running stock 380 injectors and make 260rwkw @ 17.5psi ( maxxing them out ) . Ive seen 440's on a 1jz making 285rwkw with more headroom . Also seen 650's make 307rwkw at only 60-65% duty cycle .As long as a rising Reg FPR is uses it shouldnt be an issue . As for each psi of boost the rail pressure is increased 1psi also .

I think Gianni is running about 10-14psi of boost, so i maybe his calcs are running off that extra 10-14psi of rail pressure as well ?
Damian Ware
DieHard
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 880
Reg: 10-2005

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Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 09:21 am, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Standard regs increase fuel pressure about 1psi per 1psi of boost as you have said.

When you say maxing them out what is the duty cycle your injectors are running at.

I consider 80% duty cycle to be maximum for long term use, this is what I have read many times over even though some tuners are prepaired to push the boundries to 90%.
Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder

Posts: 4860
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Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 09:47 am, by:  Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, im hearin ya. Mine im sure will be 100% . And yes 80-85% is ideal for maximum and longevity.
Mick Mielczarek
TryHard
qld
v8

Posts: 223
Reg: 07-2006

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Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 01:14 pm, by:  Mick Mielczarek (Eta04) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

my 440cc ran out of puff at 4500rpm haha
Cihan Aday
Moderator
etuner.com.au
JZZ30

Posts: 2827
Reg: 07-2005

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Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 02:48 pm, by:  Cihan Aday (Cihan) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Considering Toyota OEM 1JZ ECU's push the factory yellow top side feed injectors up to %95 @ 4.30v map input in normal weather and up to %100 (20ms+) with intake temp sensor feedback or knock feedback - i have a hard time believing %80-85 is the limit for longevity.

Never seen a yellow top let go unless its been physically removed and re-installed months later. Most are going strong after 15+ years of service.
Damian Ware
DieHard
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 882
Reg: 10-2005

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Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 03:32 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting, I wonder how many people have actually measured the duty cycle.

I have had a OEM 1uz injector fail and I was running up to 80% duty cycle. So given what I have read agrees with 80-85% as a reliable maximum I wouldn't push this figure.

What is the boost level at 4.3V on the factory map sensor, isn't that about 15psi. Given the factory boost is about 9-10psi you are not seeing 95% duty cycle from a stock car.

I was also under the impression from my previous testing that the factory map sensor boost cut was set at about 4.3V (maybe this is why the factory boost cut is set at this level to prevent burning out the injectors) and I have read some people are hitting boost cut with a FCD set to 4.1V and have had to reduce it further to prevent boost cut.

What is the 1jz ECU duty cycle output with the map sensor output at 4.1V or 4.0V?

For some reason as the components age the ECU's are also having a tendency to run richer than they I expect they did fresh from the factory.

I have seen ECU's running noticeable richer in open loop ie up to 1 AFR than they should compared to a good ECU and once repaired they are back to running a much more reasonable AFR.

I have also seen earthing problems change the AFR to run richer again buy up to 1 full AFR so I am not convinced that for 15 years toyota were running 95% duty cycle the OEM injectors.

Given Daniel's experience and yours it could also be that the 380cc's are freakishly tough?
Gianni Matrogiannis
TryHard
nsw
SC400 V8

Posts: 249
Reg: 08-2005

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Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 06:21 pm, by:  Gianni Matrogiannis (Gianni) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

damien i wouldnt mind that program if you have it handy.

the car will be set to 18psi when the new cams go in. i personally dont think i will see above 460-480rwhp. I also have a snow performance boost cooler so the methanol should help the injectors out. From what im I have read the 440s should be on their limit but ok. I do have a rising rate reg so that will made a difference.
Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder

Posts: 4863
Reg: 03-2006

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Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 06:39 pm, by:  Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Awsome Gianni :-) Cant wait to see it at the track again. That thing sounds Tough as Nails !
Nathan Richardson
TryHard
N.T.
UZZ 32 #445 (V8 Supercherged 5Speed)

Posts: 168
Reg: 02-2006

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Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 06:58 pm, by:  Nathan Richardson (Richtheblack) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have fitted 9 440's in my 32, they should do the job for me for the time being. I hope...
Cihan Aday
Moderator
etuner.com.au
JZZ30

Posts: 2828
Reg: 07-2005

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Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 10:32 pm, by:  Cihan Aday (Cihan) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sounds tough Gianni, all the best. I think you're on the money with a rising rate reg and 440's.

Damien, at 4.1v it is still over 85% by 5500rpm.
4.3v corresponds to 13.8psi which is where i've measured the injector output duration drop to 0. It can go a little higher before cutting because there's a trigger delay, but thats the limit in my experience.

Boost cut is at 4.32v or so, and there's no need to clamp any lower than that with a FCD or Emanage Blue - only the Emanage ultimate (can need as low as 3.9v to function properly because of design limitations when functioning with Toyota ECU's).

You're on to something RE old OEM ECU's, i've seen a lot of inconsistency amongst the 60 odd 1J powered cars i've tuned with them still in place.
Damian Ware
DieHard
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 884
Reg: 10-2005

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Wednesday, April 08, 2009 - 08:44 am, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I cant seem to attach the file as it is too large.

Send me your email address and I will email it through.
Damian Ware
DieHard
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 885
Reg: 10-2005

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Wednesday, April 08, 2009 - 08:53 am, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just ran through the calculator and if I have used it correctly with no rising rate reg maximum engine power is about 500kw.

Taking into account driveline loss it should be good for 400rwkw excluding the supercharger.

With about 50kw required to drive the blower without a rising rate reg you will only have enough fuel for about 350rwkw but a rising rate reg should get you there.

I also believe the calculator is using 90% duty cycle.
Gianni Matrogiannis
TryHard
nsw
SC400 V8

Posts: 250
Reg: 08-2005

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Wednesday, April 08, 2009 - 04:08 pm, by:  Gianni Matrogiannis (Gianni) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

damien please email to
g_moraitis@hotmail.com. thanks mate
Adam Peterson
Goo Roo
Western Australia
Supercharged & Intercooled V8

Posts: 2158
Reg: 04-2006

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Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 08:58 pm, by:  Adam Peterson (President) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Im also interested in this thread.
Since im running a Vortech charger @ 10psi, Adaptronic ECU, are my 440 injectors suitable for the job ?

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