| Author |
Message |
Mike Beck
Goo Roo
New Zealand
4.0GT UZZ30
Posts: 3958
Reg: 11-2005
|
Is it worth using the slightly thinner head gaskets from the 2nd Generation 1UZ-FE's with a CR of 10.4.1?
I'm guessing they would be compatible with the older engine?
Just a though I had today as I will be doing some work on the engine in late November, taking the heads off cleaning them up, rebuilding them, replacing a few shims and fitting my headers to them and sliding them in from the top.
Having done this once before I know what to do and what not to do.
So yeah, is it wise to put a thinner set of head gaskets from the stock .051" thickness?
Are there any specific 'performance' ones for sale?
Would there be any consequences from doing this other than bringing the engine into the 'interference' category? |
Dave Rose
DieHard
wa
uzz31 v8
Posts: 996
Reg: 03-2007
|
I know the engine ECU is different, suppose it would be the timing advance curve? |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 1169
Reg: 10-2005
|
If I was pulling the heads off I would increase the comp ratio by as much as reasonably possible ie 11.5:1 if I was staying N/A. |
Cihan Aday
Moderator
etuner.com.au
JZZ30
Posts: 3065
Reg: 07-2005
|
There's plenty of metal there for machining, if the heads come off.
45cc chambers would be great on petrol. Custom pistons and 38cc or so would make a clean 14:1+ comp for LPG.
At 260hp, the difference between 10:1 and 14:1 is about 35hp on a 1UZ, and a much lower BSFC which compliments gaseous fuels with lower base energy content well.
While the heads are off, $600-800 of flow work would go a long way for low lift head flow - making the stock bumpsticks work better - and alleviating some power all round.
Not a bad way to make 200rwkw. |
Mike Beck
Goo Roo
New Zealand
4.0GT UZZ30
Posts: 3959
Reg: 11-2005
|
Dave Rose wrote on Saturday, October 24, 2009 - 09:55 pm:I know the engine ECU is different, suppose it would be the timing advance curve?
That is what I was thinking, would it still run correctly if it was left?
Damian Ware wrote on Saturday, October 24, 2009 - 10:06 pm:If I was pulling the heads off I would increase the comp ratio by as much as reasonably possible ie 11.5:1 if I was staying N/A.
Cihan Aday wrote on Saturday, October 24, 2009 - 10:54 pm:
While the heads are off, $600-800 of flow work would go a long way for low lift head flow - making the stock bumpsticks work better - and alleviating some power all round.
Well yeah that may not be so hard, my mechanic which I gets part from is a bit of a 1UZ goo roo, so I could give him a pair of good heads to send away from some work to be done and to have them machined.
To be honest I will be staying NA with this car, so it's probably worth doing. The option of ITB's later down the road might not be a bad idea too as an alternative to a SC setup.
Would be ideal to get a 10.4.1/10.5.1 HG from a decent manufacture and then have the face of the head machined to the correct level to bring it up into the 11+ range?
But then again that will effect timing so what does that mean at the end of the day? |
Cihan Aday
Moderator
etuner.com.au
JZZ30
Posts: 3067
Reg: 07-2005
|
Mike, if you're looking for 200rwkw NA, your best bet is a set of cams, machined head and some mild flow work to the valve seat, throat and bowls.
The stock cams are crapola in every respect. I don't really like much of the drop in equipment for the 1UZ, but even a 'stage 1' cam with good ramp rate and lift will go a long way. With a bump in compression the idle will be a little meaner but still nice an sturdy.
Good management, mild head and cam + valve springs will put you over 200rwkw, rpm band will open up to the 7200rpm mark. Add a higher ratio diff and the difference is night and day.
The effect on ignition timing is such that you need more advance to reach mean best torque output with a higher compression ratio. But, there are no valve train related consequences as a result of head skimming like there would be with a pushrod engine, if thats what you meant. |
Mike Beck
Goo Roo
New Zealand
4.0GT UZZ30
Posts: 3960
Reg: 11-2005
|
Sounds good. Thanks for your input Cihan.
Cams & springs were on my mind today, so its got me thinking.
Then of course an engine management system is the next thing...
I will speak to my mechanic Dale and see what he has to say. Ideally start off with skimming the heads, getting the flow work done, valve springs, fitting it all back up with the 1 3/4 SS headers and going from there getting it running and then progress onto the cam and management side of it.
Shall be fun and expensive. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone
Posts: 1898
Reg: 08-2005
|
Agree. Cams for higher dynamic compression. |
Matt Petersen
DieHard
NA
V8
Posts: 607
Reg: 01-2008
|
Just buy my supercharger kit Mike and be done with it :-) Tons more KW and more importantly far more torque.
I haven't had time to touch my car in over a year and it's just sitting there taunting me. Seriously tempted to sell it. I test fitted it late last year and pulled it off to finalise the fuel rail changes and top radiator hose fitting.
It's a 99.9% complete kit already test fitted. M90 charger with pulley upgrade kit, A1 Turbo's manifold, braided line and AN fittings for fuel rail, complete top of motor gasket set, idler, all the vacuum and other related lines and hoses, throttle body adapter, intake flexible tubes, intake tube with fittings colder plugs, gasket sealant, new belt plus tons of other bits and pieces.
Manifold has been modded for the cold start injector to fit, throttle body adapter has been fabbed up and has a mount for the idle control valve, various fittings are in for boost and vacuum etc, intake tubes have fittings for idle control valve and power steer power up.
All that you would need to do is mod the top radiator hose or the water bridge. I modded the hose and routed the belt around it for a test fit but a cleaner option would be to mod the water bridge outlet. Also the cold start injector has a hard plastic line that needs to be replaced to allow it to be relocated. The wiring harness at the back also needs to be slightly modded by relocating a couple of the routing points for various sensors. No wiring changes, just opening loom and rerouting etc.
Some minor trimming of the front plastic spark plug wiring cover and it will all look completely factory. Designed to run on the stock fuel system and stock ECU etc.
If anyone is interested flick me a PM. Sorry for the thread jack Mike, thought you might be interested to see where your blower ended up!
Cheers
Matt |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone
Posts: 1899
Reg: 08-2005
|
Don't forget if you squeeze the heads down you're going to need to adjust the valve timing. Shouldn't be too hard to make up some advanced gears by hand or some adjustables if you have a lathe and rotary table or a decent machine shop nearby. |
Mike Beck
Goo Roo
New Zealand
4.0GT UZZ30
Posts: 3962
Reg: 11-2005
|
Matt Petersen wrote on Sunday, October 25, 2009 - 04:18 pm:Just buy my supercharger kit Mike and be done with it :-) Tons more KW and more importantly far more torque.
Yeah I know haha.
Ideally I would like to, but this time I will do this stuff for the meantime, I'm not after big power or torque, just to make the stock engine a more efficient than stock by doing basic naturally aspirated upgrades.
By going down this road, I can fit the headers myself and also replace the engine mounts, so it seems worth spending the extra on the head work.
If all goes well I will collect all the bits I need through November park the car up in the garage at home and do it all over a 4 full day period in the first week of December. |
Mike Beck
Goo Roo
New Zealand
4.0GT UZZ30
Posts: 3963
Reg: 11-2005
|
Miles Baker wrote on Sunday, October 25, 2009 - 04:36 pm:Don't forget if you squeeze the heads down you're going to need to adjust the valve timing. Shouldn't be too hard to make up some advanced gears by hand or some adjustables if you have a lathe and rotary table or a decent machine shop nearby.
Hmm yeah, this is what I will need to clear up with my mechanic, see what he recommends I do in that area.
If I didn't have adjustable cam gears set right would that basically mean the car wouldn't run right or would it be totally out of alignment resulting in the fun piston to valve contact? |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone
Posts: 1901
Reg: 08-2005
|
Well it depends how tight you squeeze it down. If you skim the heads right down and use thin gaskets, you might be looking for the pistons to hit the valves sooner if the cams are retarded.. never tried it with a 1UZ, you'd need to clay it. And yeah, with the cams retarded you are losing performance.
Here's how I see it:
1. If you are going to the trouble of pulling heads and rebuilding them, you're crazy not to bump the static CR by skimming. You'll need to clay to see how far you can push it. Don't forget to CC before and after to see what you've achieved.
3. If your heads are apart, at least get yourself a DIY head porting kit and open up some flow.
3. If you are going to raise the static CR, port the heads and clay, you are absolutely nuts not to toss the stock cams and take advantage of your new flow and static compression and raise the dynamic compression with new cams. Go wild or go home. No stage 1 bullsh1t here.
4. If you are claying anyway, it is natural to cut yourself some advance notches in your cam gears so you can degree your cams. You WILL get better performance and you will be able to skim even more off the heads without hitting valves.
I can't remember exactly what the 1UZ cam gears look like off hand but I would be surprised if you couldn't put 3 extra key notches in them for like +3, +6, +9 (and associated timing belt marks). All you should need is a degree wheel (which you can make), and old cam held steady in a vice, and some small files, and a load of time and some brain power. I believe they were keyed, not pinned. If pinned, even easier.
A lot of this you should be able to do by yourself, and would be even easier with a spare/junk motor to try it all on. Put in 4 valves, drop on the head, clay it, pull the head and the 4 valves, check the clay, get it skimmed, rinse, repeat. |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 1171
Reg: 10-2005
|
Miles Baker wrote on Sunday, October 25, 2009 - 03:50 pm:Agree. Cams for higher dynamic compression.
Miles this is interesting do you have any examples of performance cams that increase dynamic compression.
I have never seen an aftermarket cam spec that increased dynamic compression. Longer duration and leaving the intake valves open longer reduces the dynamic compression. Often provides best resutls used in combination with higher static compression.
As to 1uz and cams results seen thus far have been very dissapointing even though the factory cams are so mild it would be likely there could be good gains. |
Mike Beck
Goo Roo
New Zealand
4.0GT UZZ30
Posts: 3965
Reg: 11-2005
|
Thanks for the advice there Miles.
I had a quick chat to my mechanic Dale on the phone tonight. Basically touched base with what the benefits and costs are with what we have talked about.
For what I'm looking at it would start to get a little to tedious mucking around with the CR and timing, resulting in a slightly better output that has become an interference setup and not quite as ideal to S/C, which is a better spend of money than the NA route.
Ideally at this stage he recomended I should send the heads away to be ported to get as much flow as possible and stick with the stock compression.
That way I can bolt the 1 3/4 headers on the ported heads, lower them back onto the engine bolt them all up with new seals from the block up with out worrying about timing issues. Enough work as it is, can't afford any stuff ups!
I could just for see getting cleaver with changing the compression might be more of a head ache than its worth and he agreed. He said the gains of porting the heads, coupled with the headers would be pleasing enough.
So by doing this operation it would mean the following primary benefits,
- New 0.051" stock head gaskets and head bolts/washers
- New engine mounts (easy to replace with the heads off)
- Water pump replacement + coolant/thermostat.
- Power steering pump rebuild
- Starter motor rebuild
- Reseal block plates
- Various new oem gaskets, seals for intake and cooling system.
- Tapping shim replacement
- Timing belt replacement
- Head porting work.
- Rush 1 3/4 Stainless Headers
- Stuffed A/C pump delete.
After doing a similar feat this time last year I should be able to do it quicker and know how to go about it. I'd be happy.
Matt Petersen wrote on Sunday, October 25, 2009 - 04:18 pm:If anyone is interested flick me a PM. Sorry for the thread jack Mike, thought you might be interested to see where your blower ended up!
No worries Matt. I'm quite interested to hear what else you have to say on your supercharging experience, as now I have a better financial position to look back into doing what I planed over a year ago. Really a low boost 5-6PSI M90 is the way to go for what I want.
A high compression NA spec 1UZ would need to be a project further down the road for me. |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 1172
Reg: 10-2005
|
If you a pulling the heads of and not going forced induction I would increase comps.
The later model V8 with BPU's produce about 25rwkw extra with only a very small increase in comps. Up the comps a bit further even with stock heads I think you will find it will go quite well. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone
Posts: 1902
Reg: 08-2005
|
Ah well if you want to go supercharged, ignore all that.
Sh1t sorry Damian I was aiming for cylinder pressure not dcr and was going the wrong way about saying it. What I was aiming to say was you use the higher scr to bring the dcr back up with the higher lift (and therefore most likely longer duration) cams. I really went about an ass backwards way of saying that. |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 1173
Reg: 10-2005
|
No worries mate. |
Matt Petersen
DieHard
NA
V8
Posts: 608
Reg: 01-2008
|
Mike Beck wrote on Sunday, October 25, 2009 - 08:47 pm:No worries Matt. I'm quite interested to hear what else you have to say on your supercharging experience, as now I have a better financial position to look back into doing what I planed over a year ago. Really a low boost 5-6PSI M90 is the way to go for what I want.
I have driven a few hot NA and a few blown cars and the day to day driveability of a supercharger is much better than a high revving low torque NA motor, especially in an auto.
Two days and you would have the whole thing installed and running on your own Mike, pretty straight forward install. Rebuild the starter whilst you have the intake assembly off.
If I had any spare time at the moment I would have it in and running on my car but as I said I have this complete supercharger kit plus a ready to go R154 5speed conversion both sitting in the garage untouched in over a year.
Matt. |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 1174
Reg: 10-2005
|
I should add to this that there is a 1500hp 1uz that is using quoted stock heads. No comments about porting I assuem they are but they specifically state OEM valves with custom grind camshafts.
IMO you will gain sweet FA from porting the heads without other mods to match it such has completely intake replacement from the cylinder head, cams and I would couple this with more compression for an N/A motor.
As to the factory cams 400rwkw plus with stock cams has been achieved and dispite there very mild grind larger aftermarket cams really haven't done much for performance to date.
If you want to go the supercharged root, don't pull the heads off, just bolt the blower on.
If the heads are already off, sort out what you want to do stock N/A mods or FI.
Then work out what CR will be optimal for your setup. |
Mike Beck
Goo Roo
New Zealand
4.0GT UZZ30
Posts: 3974
Reg: 11-2005
|
What I will do is get the two heads and enlarge the exhaust ports to an appropriate size. Basically port-manifold matching. I was having a look at a stock head compared to a ported one and well theres quite a bit you can cut away. Then I will send them away to be skimmed for a clean surface.
Then refit them from there with the headers.
If and when I supercharge it next year, the next move after would be a set of I/E cams suited for a S/C setup and valve springs to suit including a new management system.
Thanks for your input guys. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone
Posts: 1910
Reg: 08-2005
|
Wouldn't bother with cams |
Mike Beck
Goo Roo
New Zealand
4.0GT UZZ30
Posts: 3980
Reg: 11-2005
|
Miles Baker wrote on Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 10:07 am:Wouldn't bother with cams
Well yeah, it would be one of the last drop in things to do after supercharging so it would be a long way off, thats if I wanted a few more torques and kw's for what is a relatively large amount of cash.
Not a necessity at this point in time so I'm not fussed.
 |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 1175
Reg: 10-2005
|
Mike don't bother pulling the heads off.
Save you $$$$ and just bolt the blower on. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone
Posts: 1915
Reg: 08-2005
|
Agree. |
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