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Phil Gibson
Goo Roo
WA
'91 UZZ30, '91 manual UZZ31 track bunky, '94 blk/blk UZZ31

Posts: 1749
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Friday, October 29, 2010 - 11:10 am, by:  Phil Gibson (Sciflyer) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Those graphs dont tell me anything

When im talking about off-idle im talking sub 2000rpm, more like ~1500rpm

Regardless, i think this is getting a bit academic. The point is this idea that a hi-power turbo hi-compression engine has to be laggy or have no low-down response is clearly wrong, partly because a hi-compression n/a engine under boost is a different animal to a factory low-compression turbo engine.
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

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Friday, October 29, 2010 - 12:36 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Phil Gibson wrote on Friday, October 29, 2010 - 11:10 am:

Those graphs dont tell me anything




Air flow volume is shown from blower rpm 4000rpm to 13000rpm. Below and above those ranges it becomes non linear.

Optimal drive ratio is slighly above 2:1 thus at 4000rpm blower speed this will be approximately 1700-2000rpm engine speed. If the motor has linear air flow with rpm they are fairly close there will be constant boost from depending on exact gearing 1700rpm to red line.


Phil Gibson wrote on Friday, October 29, 2010 - 11:10 am:

When im talking about off-idle im talking sub 2000rpm, more like ~1500rpm




Sub 2000rpm with an automatic soarer is impossible to test as stall RPM is 2000rpm. So thus for an automatic car with 2000rpm stall this is off idle response. (Also why I asked Nath for results of his application)

Neil has posted with his manual uzz31 and M90 setup he had 9psi at 1700rpm, I don't know how much boost there was before this.

I have seen a 4.0lt nissan patrol with M90 that is built for low down response and torque (red line at 4000rpm engine speed) with correct blower gearing had full boost 13psi at 1200rpm (engine speed) and boost was almost constant from 1200 to 4000rpm (engine speed). Blower must have been gear up over 3:1 for such a result but with such a low engine RPM it was withing the capabilities of the supercharger.

Provide the blower is sized and geared correctly it will maintain almost constant boost (dependant on the engine) from blower speed 4000rpm (engine speed 1700rpm) through to red line.
Cihan Aday
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etuner.com.au
JZZ30

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Saturday, October 30, 2010 - 08:22 am, by:  Cihan Aday (Cihan) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think the older inefficient roots blowers are a good example for comparison in terms of overall pricing vs performance.

In an ideal scenario I think a twin screw 2-3 litre blower on a 1UZ is an excellent choice for a street driven car.

Most of use will agree that the drawback with a soarer chassis + 1UZ is space/clearance/confinement. We know that blowers need minimum restriction on draw through, otherwise there's a big topend performance penalty. Because of space constraints its hard to make everything big enough or free enough, especially for high power applications that need intercooling (say, 550hp+).

But a well done setup making 300-350rwkw (480-550hp) on straight pump fuel is going to be achievable without intercooling, and within space constraints of the standard bonnet and engine bay with a bit of effort. Now with E85 being phased in, there's a little more impetus to go a blower for 350-400kw IMO.

If you want to aim higher and you're opening up the engine then i'd turbocharge. Custom intake manifold, cams and a 67-70mm turbo can easily eclipse 450rwkw, no questions, no problem. You have enough displacement, and reasonable head flow to make 700hp without much magic or many brain cells.
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

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Saturday, October 30, 2010 - 09:14 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Cihan Aday wrote on Saturday, October 30, 2010 - 08:22 am:

I don't think the older inefficient roots blowers are a good example for comparison in terms of overall pricing vs performance.




I used an M90 just as an example for two reasons. There is lots of available real world data and there is easy to read manufactures specifications.

M90 still has its place on a 1uz in a soarer, going the next step to the 1.9lt TVS requires considerably more funds to get the bennifits.

Largest pulley that will fit under the bonnet (with the stock crank pulley) runs I think 11-12psi. You would need in additional to the blower and kit, full aftermarket ECU, bigger injectors high flow fuel pump, shift kit/auto full rebuild which adds considerable cost.

Yes it offers great performance potential but without an extra 3k for management and fueling and 3k for beefed up driveline you wont be able to use it. Given this just about doubles the cost of the basic supercharger installation many people don't go this far. There is someone thinking he would be abe to buy a used blower kit and supercharge there soarer for $1200.....
Cihan Aday
Moderator
etuner.com.au
JZZ30

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Sunday, October 31, 2010 - 08:29 am, by:  Cihan Aday (Cihan) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Damien, ive tuned many m90 powered 1UZ's and even with a tiny pulley making 12psi the M90 is struggling to make anywhere near 6000N through 3rd - thats blowing hot air. The 'bolt on' m90 kits around with just a fuel pressure reg upgrade struggle to put out 170rwkw after the factory computer is finished hacking at the timing map. We've all seen this at many dyno days.

Without detracting from your original post, i don't consider the M90 a good comparison because in my experience its barely worth the effort. Now if you can pick up a bolt on kit for $1200 - thats a different story, not everyone is able or going to want to do that.

Come on a shift kit is enough for good power through the V8 auto, $550 drive away or $150 less DIY. 7MGE injectors drop in and walbro pumps are $120. Emanage ultimate's are 850 landed new with a full harness, i've picked them up for half that used.
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

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Sunday, October 31, 2010 - 07:58 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Cihan Aday wrote on Sunday, October 31, 2010 - 08:29 am:

Damien, ive tuned many m90 powered 1UZ's and even with a tiny pulley making 12psi the M90 is struggling to make anywhere near 6000N through 3rd - thats blowing hot air. The 'bolt on' m90 kits around with just a fuel pressure reg upgrade struggle to put out 170rwkw after the factory computer is finished hacking at the timing map. We've all seen this at many dyno days.




Stock output with no modifications at all for a V8 soarer is roughly 130rwkw. With M90 setup and a real 6psi (not the 4.5psi pulley that was available originally as a 6psi pulley) they put down as you say around 170rwkw with no other mods.

Sure not mega Hp but that is still a good 40rwkw gain not to mention the huge increase in low down power and torque.

Add an exhaust and tuning and 200rwkw is possible.

Add water meth 215rwkw.

Increase boost to 9psi and there are a few people with results of over 230rwkw. 100rwkw gain with huge amounts of low down power and torque. The best example that I am aware of to date was stock 1uz with C's cams and C's blower kit that put down 247rwkw with an SMT6 for tuning.

Even with 170rwkw a 1uz + M90 transforms a V8 soarer giving real world performance that i would equate to a TT putting down 200-220rwkw. Compare a M90 setup with 220-230rwkw to a TT I would say you are now heading up around the real world performance of a 250rwkw TT.

That is certainly a good result by any means. Sure not as good as a 2.3lt twin screw of 1.9lt TVS but a massive improvement.

Given the reliable limit of a stock 1uz appears to be roughly around the 250-280rwkw (based on failures) and 170-230rwkw is possible with an M90 and 100% stock 1uz that isn't that bad.


Cihan Aday wrote on Sunday, October 31, 2010 - 08:29 am:

Come on a shift kit is enough for good power through the V8 auto, $550 drive away or $150 less DIY




These cars aren't new anymore, there have been a few stock V8 autos fail that were well maintained with stock HP and a surprising number that have BPU or boost.

The torque offered by a positive displacement supercharger is hard on driveline components (I cant compare this directly to a 1uz turbo setup) in particularly on the trans. Shift kit certainly helps but if you going beyond the HP of a M90 setup they are not up to the job long term and a rebuild with strengthening must be taking into account.
Phil Gibson
Goo Roo
WA
'91 UZZ30, '91 manual UZZ31 track bunky, '94 blk/blk UZZ31

Posts: 1752
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Sunday, October 31, 2010 - 09:57 pm, by:  Phil Gibson (Sciflyer) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Damian Ware wrote on Sunday, October 31, 2010 - 07:58 pm:

Given the reliable limit of a stock 1uz appears to be roughly around the 250-280rwkw (based on failures) and 170-230rwkw is possible with an M90 and 100% stock 1uz that isn't that bad.




Dont agree with this at all. What failures? How do you know the cause? Bad tune? That could happen at 350rwkw or 150. The fact that there are 1UZs around making far more than that on stock internals makes this a questionable statement.

Same with the autos - the limit of the stock auto is well known, if an auto fails at stock or near-stock power it is age, lack or servicing or abuse that is the cause not the power.

Damian Ware wrote on Sunday, October 31, 2010 - 07:58 pm:

Stock output with no modifications at all for a V8 soarer is roughly 130rwkw




And a healthy one with extractors and exhaust will be 150+ (mine was)

So only 20 kw more for a blown one using an inefficient blower on the stock ECU with questionable longevity? I think the number of times people have tried this and then quickly realised its a bad idea and get either a better blower and/or proper ECU control speaks volumes about this approach
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 1822
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Monday, November 01, 2010 - 12:27 am, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Phil Gibson wrote on Sunday, October 31, 2010 - 09:57 pm:

Dont agree with this at all. What failures? How do you know the cause? Bad tune? That could happen at 350rwkw or 150. The fact that there are 1UZs around making far more than that on stock internals makes this a questionable statement.

Same with the autos - the limit of the stock auto is well known, if an auto fails at stock or near-stock power it is age, lack or servicing or abuse that is the cause not the power.




As I said above the autos are now 18 plus years old not new. Even well looked after units will not hold up as well to the additional stress/load with a boosted engine placed on them as a new unit or rebuilt and strengthened unit.
If the limit of the stock V8 auto is so well know can you please let me know as I have seen considerable variation.

The failures I am referring to are when no other cause such as bad tune failure of fuel supply or other problem has been identified. Any failure caused by bad tune fuel supply ect is not relvant to what a 1uz can survive.

Can you provide evidence of 1uz's with stock internal surviving at much higher power levels ie 350rwkw plus. I have heard about lots and dispite my research I have never seen any evidence of there exsistance. Justins engine was the only one I know of and his engine was only pushed that far on the dyno or short bust drag use I have been told. As per what I posted previously and what I have been told he ran 10psi on the track (240-290rwkw depending at what stage he was at in development) not to mention a bucket load of water meth and his engine eventually let go.



Phil Gibson wrote on Sunday, October 31, 2010 - 09:57 pm:

And a healthy one with extractors and exhaust will be 150+ (mine was)

So only 20 kw more for a blown one using an inefficient blower on the stock ECU with questionable longevity? I think the number of times people have tried this and then quickly realised its a bad idea and get either a better blower and/or proper ECU control speaks volumes about this approach




You need to put this in perspective 130rwkw to 170rwkw is good gain, and if you start with a higher power figure then add 6psi you will have a higher result.

IE if you start with 150+rwkw due to a better than average engine and exhaust system you would still gain 40rwkw if not more with a less restrictive exhaust system, hence you would roughly end up with 200rwkw.
Aiden Cheese
DieHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30

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Monday, November 01, 2010 - 02:27 pm, by:  Aiden Cheese (Chillpen) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Damian Ware wrote on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 12:27 am:


You need to put this in perspective 130rwkw to 170rwkw is good gain, and if you start with a higher power figure then add 6psi you will have a higher result.

IE if you start with 150+rwkw due to a better than average engine and exhaust system you would still gain 40rwkw if not more with a less restrictive exhaust system, hence you would roughly end up with 200rwkw.


+1
Phil Gibson
Goo Roo
WA
'91 UZZ30, '91 manual UZZ31 track bunky, '94 blk/blk UZZ31

Posts: 1753
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Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 12:44 pm, by:  Phil Gibson (Sciflyer) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Neil has said the practical limit of power on a boosted, stock compression engine is around 350rwkw *on 98RON fuel* not jungle juice - This figure was backed up by someone else who's been there, done that, i forget who it was.

I quote from an engine builder in QLD

we know 2 other guys running them. stock engines with t70's bolted on. both engines have done 4+ years of racing with no problems. stock internals. (He will run) ~400rwhp to ensure the life of the engine.

one of them runs the auto. still on his first one. just has a full manual valve body and a good trans cooler.


A stock A341 with a decent cooler will handle your stock engine/ECU M90 combo no problem. With autos heat is a killer as much as pure power or abuse. Again, how do you establish the "limit"? If it lasts for 5 years, 2 years or a few months at a given power level?

Oh and again another quote from Justen - UZ will do 300rwkw all day every day standing on it's ear on stock internals. Mine took five years of thrashing to kill (most of that trackwork) with 320rwkw and only broke a single ring land at the track when i did something silly with the fuel.}
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 1827
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Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 09:28 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Phil Gibson wrote on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 12:44 pm:

ne of them runs the auto. still on his first one. just has a full manual valve body and a good trans cooler.




In what application, specifically what is the weight of the car. The ability for a transmission
to survive is directly related to the power and torque put through it and the resistance to this power and torque from the mass of the car.

Good example is a particular manual which regularly fails a little beyond 230rwkw in a standard street car. Yet in a light weight race car 700kg the gear box has surived in a number of cars multiples seasons of racing with around 300rwkw.

From what I have seen good condition autos with trans coolers and shift kits are reliable in a soarer up to about 260-270rwkw and about 200-220rwkw without a shift kit.

In a light weight race car running a large turbo setup with less low down torque that would most likely be able to survive 350rwkw.

I know of a couple of autos which have failed with shift kits in the high 200's sure perfectly fine for M90 but with a bigger blower TVS, whipple how long are they going to last.


As I said above I know of a number of 1uz's that have failed beyond 300rwkw. One particularly example the engine was putting down 280ish rwkw with out issue for 9 months. 100% reliable show no signs of problems of likely hood of failure. Boost was increased retuned carefully check over including oil pressure and temps no problems were found, power went up to 330ish rwkw and it failed in 2 days.



Phil Gibson wrote on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 12:44 pm:

Oh and again another quote from Justen - UZ will do 300rwkw all day every day standing on it's ear on stock internals. Mine took five years of thrashing to kill (most of that trackwork) with 320rwkw and only broke a single ring land at the track when i did something silly with the fuel.


}

I cant find this quote in Justins thread. Justins engine failed on track running at and I quote from his thread 10psi with 331rwkw, "more power/torque than i have run at the track before".

Amazing power figure for that boost level but the engine which had, up until this point had been reliable then failed.

There was no mention of something silly with fuel on v-eight tech.

The failure ring land on number 7 is the same failure of the other 1uz's I have seen fail.

Looks to be reasonable evidence to suggest this is around the limit of a stock 1uz again beyond double the factory HP which is still a mighty fine effort.
Phil Gibson
Goo Roo
WA
'91 UZZ30, '91 manual UZZ31 track bunky, '94 blk/blk UZZ31

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Friday, November 05, 2010 - 06:04 pm, by:  Phil Gibson (Sciflyer) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The quote wasnt from Toymods, it was Lextreme
(or maybe PF, cant remember)

One would think the Bullet HTV kit would be a serious concern if there were proven consistant reliability issues around the 300rwkw mark!
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 1854
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Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 12:21 am, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The HTV kit from bullet was listed for high HP race engines only at first.


On there updated site they state 250rwkw+ and ideally suited to 1uz's with forged internals.
Nathan Richardson
TryHard
N.T.
UZZ32 #445 (V8 Supercherged 5Speed. 291RWKW)

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Friday, November 12, 2010 - 12:39 am, by:  Nathan Richardson (Richtheblack) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Damian Ware wrote on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 12:21 am:

The HTV kit from bullet was listed for high HP race engines only at first.




I believe this statement was due to the fact that they had not produced vehicle specific kits at the time.


Damian Ware wrote on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 12:21 am:

On there updated site they state 250rwkw+ and ideally suited to 1uz's with forged internals.




You would be crazy not to make a statement like this wouldn't you? If you didn't, you would open yourself up to liability.

Cheers.
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 1874
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Saturday, November 13, 2010 - 01:02 am, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Nathan Richardson wrote on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 12:39 am:

I believe this statement was due to the fact that they had not produced vehicle specific kits at the time.




Fair enough.


Nathan Richardson wrote on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 12:39 am:

You would be crazy not to make a statement like this wouldn't you? If you didn't, you would open yourself up to liability.




Exactly but they didn't do this for the M90 kits as they were well proven to be within a stock 1uz's reliable range.
Nathan Richardson
TryHard
N.T.
UZZ32 #445 (V8 Supercherged 5Speed. 291RWKW)

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Saturday, November 13, 2010 - 10:55 am, by:  Nathan Richardson (Richtheblack) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Damian Ware wrote on Saturday, November 13, 2010 - 01:02 am:

Exactly but they didn't do this for the M90 kits as they were well proven to be within a stock 1uz's reliable range.




Very good point. :-)

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