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John Stafford
DieHard
Qld.
Soarer UZZ31 GT-L V8 and a UZZ32 # 514

Posts: 767
Reg: 02-2010

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Monday, December 30, 2013 - 08:06 am, by:  John Stafford (Johng12) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey, hear ye! hear ye!!

Finally discovered the problem!!!

I haven't fixed it totally but that will come.
It was the gradual, fast (under 3 years), breakdown of the wiring insulation on the LPG loom.

The way the AC Stag vapour injection system is wired involves a wiring connection between the petrol injectors (to follow the ecu signal) to the LPG computer, which signals the LPG injectors to open.

I assume that the way the signal works is that the more fuel you need, because you have more air on full throttle, the more resistance there is in the wires under full throttle, open loop. If the insulation is cracked, through it being poor quality Chinese plastic, the current shorts out and no fuel is delivered. The result is that the engine dies!!

I had failed to see the hair lines cracks in the wiring until my younger eyed son in law saw it in the sunlight (I usually work in the garage).

I cut and joined new wires on the wiring of each plug, one after the other, both ends of the connectors had cracked insulation on 7 of the 8 plugs. I haven't done number 8 yet but with the repair of each crack in the insulation there has been a reduction in the miss. I can't see any cracks in # wire yet but haven't had it off to check properly as it is hard to get to. I think there must be other cracks that I haven't found yet.

The whole loom needs replacing and the whole thing rewiring. I had the system installed in Melbourne so can't just drop in and have the installer redo it. I will ring him today and ask he send me a new loom, which I will doctor with extra insulation so as to protect against future degeneration, as I suppose the quality of the new loom will be the same as the one that I am replacing.

Well I have put more than $1500 worth of parts chasing this miss (I have saved plenty by getting good prices from the U.S. as the full prices in Australia for most parts would have maybe been double this).
It has taken over 80 yours labour in a bit less than 4 months, that is about 8 hours a week.
Then there has been the extra fuel I have used in testing and the would be cost of parts that I swapped out from my 32.
Hey, what a journey!!
I may have a couple of days work yet to redo the loom but the end is in sight .

I have learned much but most of all I am so grateful for all the help that has been offered by way of brain energy from the guys on SC. Many of you have journeyed with me on this. Thanks heaps.

I will let you know when it is finally fully fixed.
It was so good last night to put the peddle to the metal and only have one hesitation as the revs climbed as they should.
By the way, it certainly breaths better with the new hi flow cats. I can see what extractors and less restrictive mufflers would do for these engines.
Dave Rose
Goo Roo
wa
UZZ31 / ML320 CDI

Posts: 2396
Reg: 03-2007

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Monday, December 30, 2013 - 09:57 am, by:  Dave Rose (Sand_groper) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Dave Rose wrote on Thursday, December 12, 2013 - 05:05 pm:


Is there anything left ?? I know you have done all the electrics ,if i had just read the symptoms in this post #5 i would say something is breaking down cant see how after all that you have done!!! but you could try running the engine in a pitch black garage get some one to stab gas pedal just to see if there is any blue glow or tracking on the engine.............

glad its sorted John we were getting close
John Street
TryHard
NSW
VE Calais V8,97 UZZ31, 2009 Saab 9-3 Turbo

Posts: 379
Reg: 08-2005

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Monday, December 30, 2013 - 08:18 pm, by:  John Street (Rex2ce) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Congrats John you are definitely a patient man.
Is it possible to make a new loom yourself out of decent wire?
John Stafford
DieHard
Qld.
Soarer UZZ31 GT-L V8 and a UZZ32 # 514

Posts: 768
Reg: 02-2010

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Monday, December 30, 2013 - 09:31 pm, by:  John Stafford (Johng12) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, John.
My son in law and I made a completely new loom today and redesigned it too, so that the install is now completely clean, no clutter and no wires near heat and good quality wire and the best insulation that is used on Caterpillar and the whole thing wired in with Deutsch plugs, only the best. It works great.

Dave, if I had of put it in a dark room I probably would have seen the short, some of them anyway as mostly they were hidden away. Every plug connection was cracked both ends and maybe other places too at kinks in the loom.

Quite a while ago Peter Taplin had said that I might need to disconnect the LPG wiring to see it the problem was there.
That seemed a slim chance to me as the install was still under warranty, less than 3 years old.

Well lesson learned, be careful of any wires that are not too thick and which are exposed to heat.
The Toyota ones were fine but they may have a limit too.

It started without its traditional momentary miss, which I think was a tell tale sign of the greater problem.

Thanks again for everyone who has tried to help with this.
Victory is sweet.
Daniel Marshall
DieHard
QLD
V8 UZZ31 X6 jzz30x1

Posts: 582
Reg: 07-2011

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Tuesday, December 31, 2013 - 12:13 am, by:  Daniel Marshall (Ydass) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Glad to hear it's sorted.
I've just got this problem come up on a Carby 22r Toyota hilux haha
Matthew Salkeld
TryHard
South Australia
1JZ powered 180sx

Posts: 137
Reg: 07-2008

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Tuesday, December 31, 2013 - 07:56 am, by:  Matthew Salkeld (Munkymatt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

wires are heat rated... some engines protect wiring well from heat and others don't... the 1JZ's, for example, never seem to radiate too much heat through the head (my coilpacks never really get over 50 degrees, regardless of thrashing etc- I test this by driving with a logged thermocouple attached).

Anyway, wires generally come in a few flavors... rated to 80 or 105 mostly. The problem is that 80's almost never survive heat cycling at 80 degrees; or they might have used 55. Either way I'm not suprised. Auto loom wire is almost always the long life 105 stuff and the routing has more to do with it's survival than the material. Keep wires secure and cool(movement can hurt them in conjunction with heat).
John Stafford
DieHard
Qld.
Soarer UZZ31 GT-L V8 and a UZZ32 # 514

Posts: 769
Reg: 02-2010

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Tuesday, December 31, 2013 - 10:34 am, by:  John Stafford (Johng12) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That is good info Matthew.
The wires that I used for the new loom were the top rating, the same as used by caterpillar. And they are routed as good as it gets, so now should be everlasting.

I have never met a sales person tell me the rating on wires. What kind of person would be up with wire specs?
Cheers
John Stafford
DieHard
Qld.
Soarer UZZ31 GT-L V8 and a UZZ32 # 514

Posts: 798
Reg: 02-2010

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Sunday, May 11, 2014 - 11:15 pm, by:  John Stafford (Johng12) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi guys,
Just wanted to put a wrap up on this long standing problem that I have had with my 31.

I thought that I had solved the problem but found out that I had only solved part of the problem, (namely the LPG loom itself). I realised that actually it was not fully solved.

I developed a difficulty with cold starting and started a new thread to get help with that but the dying on both petrol and LpG was still there on full throttle.
Here is the outcome of a year of looking to solve this. read on:

Starting problem turned out to be faulty connection of the air flow meter that was fixed with CRC Electrical cleaner.
Who would have thought it after my trying another Carmen Vortex unit, never imagined it was the connection, which looked and felt fine but the engine stumbled at starting for a few seconds, like it didn't know it was supposed to fire all 8 cylinders, then it would right itself and the problem would not come back until after parking the car all night and then in the morning it would be the same as the day before: stumble along on some cylinders till it seemed all began to fire.

The dying on both LPG and petrol were different issues:
1. I decided to take the Petrol injectors out and have them electrically checked and properly cleaned. The proved to have a very bad spray pattern and were not dosing the required amount of petrol at WOT. Once professionally cleaned the car ran great on Petrol.
2. The wiring loom on the LPG had failed insulation in many places(as previously explained)and so my son in law and I made a whole new loom and redid all the connections, all done with very high quality wire and attention to detail. In the process we found the number 1 and number 3 wires were not as the wiring diagram for the LPG. We swapped them but there was no real difference noted so thought that they must be right after all and so we left them how they came off. The changeover from petrol to LPG was not noticeably different, but because the petrol injectors were not running how they should have I could not pick up the fault on idle.

Now with the injectors clean and a little more knowledge of reading the laptop tuning program for the LPG I could test to see if each of the LPG injectors are working like desired on the changeover from Petrol to LPG. I noted that the car was stumbling when I changed over #1 and #3 cylinder. I did each cylinder individually!!!!
Number 1 and number 3 were around the wrong way. Once I swapped them over and took it for a run it was a new car, fast and smooth. Hey how sweet!!!

I have a little tuning fix up to fiddle with from 2000 to 3500 rev range but no big deal. I have my car back again after a year's trial.

And after the replacement of the air filter, spark plugs, leads, rotors, distributor caps, knock sensors and intake gaskets, throttle body clean and re gasket, O2 sensors x 2, coolant temp sensor, Throttle position sensor, clean and lube of air Idle speed sensor. I also swapped the following out of my 32, which had no problems: both ignitors, air intake Carman Vortex unit, swap of main ECU.
I checked on resistance in the crank angle and cam angle sensors, (they tested out perfectly).

I did a compression test, all cylinders were 180 psi. I ran a vacuum gauge on the engine and although not that high a reading it was rock solid, so no issues with valves, rings guides etc.
I took the back off the fuel tank and looked in to see if there was any mould or sediment or anything in the tank but all spotlessly clean.
I have changed the fuel filter too.
I did numerous runs with an AFR gauge to adjust the fuel via the LPG piggy back computer but could not solve the problem until today. Oh happy day guys, happy day!!!!
Peter Nitschke
Junk Filterer
South Australia
UZZ30 UZZ31

Posts: 12645
Reg: 11-2004

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Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 06:48 pm, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good to see a positive result. You worked hard for it.
Matthew Salkeld
TryHard
South Australia
1JZ powered 180sx

Posts: 215
Reg: 07-2008

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Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 09:34 pm, by:  Matthew Salkeld (Munkymatt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


John Stafford wrote on Tuesday, December 31, 2013 - 10:34 am:




Anyone who can read actually :-) heat rating is a core specification of wire and is a significant factor of price. Whenever someone buys wire, they choose a rated temperature. Unrated wire = gamble.

Also, congrats again. Perseverance pays off! :-)
Matthew Salkeld
TryHard
South Australia
1JZ powered 180sx

Posts: 216
Reg: 07-2008

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Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 09:35 pm, by:  Matthew Salkeld (Munkymatt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That quote... it was when you asked about wire specs earlier...
John Stafford
DieHard
Qld.
Soarer UZZ31 GT-L V8 and a UZZ32 # 514

Posts: 801
Reg: 02-2010

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Thursday, May 15, 2014 - 08:46 am, by:  John Stafford (Johng12) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

thanks again guys for your input along the journey. This car has become more precious to me with every investment, crazy amount of work,hey!

I was going to get rid of it, going to put a new motor in it, going to buy a 6 cylinder twin turbo Soarer and part this out, so many ideas came and went but now all fine and it goes really well, faster than my 32 too, which was not the case before.

I do have one thing though. This car has never wanted to start first pop in the mornings, so I have the habit of turning it over for just a bit before really expecting it to start on the second turn of the key. What might this be?

Could it be a drain back of petrol into the tank from a fuel pump that doesn't hold pressure?
I still do not know a way to check fuel pressure without having to connect a gauge to the outlet of the fuel filter, very messy and so I have not tested that.
Is there another way/place to test the fuel pressure?
John Street
TryHard
NSW
VE Calais V8,97 UZZ31, 2009 Saab 9-3 Turbo

Posts: 420
Reg: 08-2005

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Thursday, May 15, 2014 - 03:36 pm, by:  John Street (Rex2ce) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

With the morning starts, why dont you turn the ignition on, wait until car checks itself and then fire it up, you would definately have fuel pressure by then, see if it works.
John Stafford
DieHard
Qld.
Soarer UZZ31 GT-L V8 and a UZZ32 # 514

Posts: 802
Reg: 02-2010

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Sunday, May 18, 2014 - 10:54 pm, by:  John Stafford (Johng12) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi John, I did what you suggested re allowing the pump to prime before turning over but it makes no difference. Still need 3 goes and then only seems to start on only some cylinders but rights itself within a few seconds and then no worries for the rest of the day.
I will start another thread for this problem.
cheers
John Stafford
DieHard
Qld.
Soarer UZZ31 GT-L V8 and a UZZ32 # 514

Posts: 815
Reg: 02-2010

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Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 07:31 am, by:  John Stafford (Johng12) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok, here is the summary of what I have done and the victory at the end of the run :-)

Changed plugs, tried both silver Brisks and new stock NGKs.
Changed plug leads, measured resistance and tried both Toyota and new Beck Arnley leads.
Changed both coils.
Checked condition of distributor caps and rotor, these were replaced not long ago.
Checked to see rotors were on the timing marks, they were perfectly lined up.
Fitted new O2 sensors.
Swapped igniters off my perfect running active 32.
Swapped ECU off my perfect running active 32 and swapped back again when there was no difference. I have replaced caps in both these ECUs and have had no issues in my 32.
Changed new Temp sensor (green one behind thermostat).
Checked thermostat, working properly (82 degrees).
Changed throttle position sensor (TPS), Note: when setting up make sure your air con is off or rotating will not make any difference to revs. So, you won't be able to find your "sweet spot".
Swapped air flow meter (Karmen Vortex) unit from my 32.
Disconnected the air flow meter plug to see if it still had the same miss, the miss is still there.
Tested all but the brown wires to the air flow meter for continuity to the ECU and for earthing out by grounding them and seeing that they had infinity resistance, they did, so no earthing out.
Checked the wires from cam sensors and crank angle sensor that they are not near the power belt to get worn.
Checked the resistance of cam and crank angle sensors and they were both spec.
Reset the computer by pulling the 2 fuses for ecu and dome, which is the gearbox ecu fuse (it had blown).
Played with the tune of LPG and am fairly happy that it cannot be greatly improved over what it is.
Fitted new knock sensors and new inlet gaskets and plenum gaskets. I thought that maybe the knock sensors were pulling out timing under full throttle but no difference.
Fitted new hi flow stainless steel cats, still no different.
Replaced LPG wiring loom (completely redone) due to insulation cracks making for possible shorting between wires.
Found some possible failures in plug leads so changed plug leads again.
New problems added to the dying on full throttle.
It began to start hard, I thought that it was probably bad fuel from sitting for 2 months plus slow usage, due to LPG use, so put 35 ltrs of 98 in on top of 9 old.
Had injectors professionally cleaned. Good improvement with regard to acceleration on petrol but still has dying, just not so bad and still has poor starting, only some cylinders at first for a few seconds.
I also noticed that there is a stumble on changeover from Petrol to LPG that I hadn't noticed before.
Major breakthrough.
A major step forward when I found that 1 and 3 LPG injectors were around the wrong way.
When I tried to tune the LPG I found that the dying not as nearly pronounced but it was still there. However, the stumble on changeover from petrol to LPG was eliminated.
Fitted new fuel pump (high pressure Walbro 255ltr/hr), which is noisy due to the higher flowback rate of unused fuel and this seemed to help lesson the dying on full throttle but still not lighting up all cylinders on start up, so finally came down to changing the fuel ecu that only gives 8 volts for cruise but needs 12 volts for start up and for full throttle.
Changed over the fuel ecu from the 32 and the problem is fixed, after all this time and with all the contributing factors, that intensified the problem, we have finally got to the root cause of the dying, the fuel ecu!!!!! not giving me enough fuel signal on start up and on full throttle. It obviously has influence over the LPG injection too!!
An amazing thing is that the 31 fuel ecu worked fine in the 32??? Go figure. May show up later on?

So, on the 1st June we have our car back.

Peter Nitschke
Junk Filterer
South Australia
UZZ30 UZZ31

Posts: 12652
Reg: 11-2004

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Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 06:30 pm, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That was a long and winding road!
John Stafford
DieHard
Qld.
Soarer UZZ31 GT-L V8 and a UZZ32 # 514

Posts: 818
Reg: 02-2010

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Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 09:03 pm, by:  John Stafford (Johng12) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, certainly was a long winding road Peter. Kept thinking that I had found it, only to have it reappear. Great to have an even flow of power now on both petrol and LPG.

It was the starting problem that finally gave it away and led me to the real problem. The trouble was that it seemed to come and go, I suppose the fuel ecu was becoming more erratic over time and so made me think, when it had a good day, that whatever I had done last had worked.
Mind you most things that I did have meant that the car should be performing at its best, maybe better than most, who have never replaced old sensors.

I have put some extra sound deadening carpet underlay behind the back seat, not easy to get the seat in with the underlay there, so tomorrow will see it it deadens the noise of my new high pressure pump.

thanks again everyone for racking your brains along with me on this. Hope the journey helps someone else someday :-)
Jason Hall
TryHard
Victoria
SC400 Ltd V8

Posts: 225
Reg: 02-2010

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Monday, June 09, 2014 - 04:50 pm, by:  Jason Hall (Halljps) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good write up, these issues can be painful and it's great to show the journey for others later :-)

FWIW, I put a relay on my pump and triggered it using the fuel ecu.

$10 part and delivers full 12v as long as the fuel ecu tells it to be on.

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