Author |
Message |
Michael Sinay
DieHard NSW TT
Posts: 540 Reg: 07-2005
| HI John, that's some great info you posted there. I'd definitely be interested in hearing more info regarding the computers, injectors, etc, and anything else you can think of. How well have the parts lasted so far? Anything needed to be replaced? |
John Stafford
DieHard Qld. Soarer UZZ31 GT-L V8 and a UZZ32 # 514
Posts: 794 Reg: 02-2010
| Mike, The best injectors are the prinz type but they are too expensive for my liking, Hana seem to make a good copy, that is what I have on my 31. Valtek make a similar one that costs nearly 3 times more (type 34) than Valtek's common ordinary solenoid type, type 30. The Hana get a 100,000 klm warranty but the Valtek 30 will show signs of ware in maybe 40,000 klms. But are cheap to service, with parts easily available. The vapourizer needs to be able to fit into the small space on our V8's and to be able to cope with the horsepower that you will have, depending on your mods. You will need to think about this properly as you have no room for a second reducer (vapourizer), which some who haven't done an install on a soarer may suggest. I have a BRM brick on my 31, which is able to deliver more LPG than many others, if the need arises. The computer that I have on my king system on the 32 doesn't have a graph of the map, only numbers and is therefore not so easy to set perfectly without an AFR gauge, as you can't see how much is getting in to the cylinders. But at the end of the day it comes to developing skills in tuning, whatever computer you use. I have an AC Stag Isa 2 controller on my 31 and although it gives a lot of info it is much more complex to understand. There are many choices but it depends on who is conversant with the unit. Have they tuned performance cars and do they use a dyno? The guys who use a dyno will cost you more but you may be happier, as they will give you the best economy as well as the performance. "Good" costs either lots of time and fuel for you to get the best out of the vapour system or pay someone to do what they are already trained and experienced to do. If I had of gone to these performance guys I would have paid another $1500 to $2000 and, no doubt, I would not have known what was done for me (they keep a lot of things secret to maintain their business edge). By the way I re looked at my government rebates and saw that I had received $1500 the first install and then $1250 for the second. It is now $1000 but you must get it done by June to get this as it finishes then. |
Scott Vim
DieHard Vic Soarer (1uz) Chaser (1jz)
Posts: 840 Reg: 12-2010
| When the rebate finishes the cost of installations should go back down. |
John Stafford
DieHard Qld. Soarer UZZ31 GT-L V8 and a UZZ32 # 514
Posts: 795 Reg: 02-2010
| Yes Scott, I guessed that, that would have to happen or no one would get any business. The guys who made their money from installs must be feeling it with the rise on LPG prices too. |
Michael Sinay
DieHard NSW TT
Posts: 549 Reg: 07-2005
| Hey John, are LPG systems vehicle specific, or can they be interchanged relatively easily between different models? Ie are the kits basically using universal ecus and injectors etc, so a kit fitted to a commodore for example could be basically fitted to soarer with just some minor adjustments? |
Scott Vim
DieHard Vic Soarer (1uz) Chaser (1jz)
Posts: 893 Reg: 12-2010
| I'm not sure but tanks are pretty universal if you have the boot space. You will need to be getting a system with the same amount of cylinders obviously. I think my installer went fora standard system and modified to suit rather then picking something from another model. |
John Stafford
DieHard Qld. Soarer UZZ31 GT-L V8 and a UZZ32 # 514
Posts: 840 Reg: 02-2010
| Hi Michael, I have an AC stag 300 Isa2 controller on my 31 and it is fine for anything from 1 to 8 cylinders. You need a vaporizer with enough HP capacity for your engine, I have one that is supposed to cope with 400 hp, about as big as they go, otherwise you put 2 on together, but I bit tight for that on a Soarer. You have to get a tank that will fit in your wheel well, not easy with our cars but if you get a new one from http://www.bluelpg.com.au/donut-tanks.html you can get one that will be higher than your boot floor and give you more capacity (check out the sizes in the list on their web site). Measure your space and see what you can get second hand if you like. You will just need to get the right wiring harness for the soarer. I would think that you could order that new if you got the other bit second hand?? Hope that helps. Cheers |
Scott Vim
DieHard Vic Soarer (1uz) Chaser (1jz)
Posts: 894 Reg: 12-2010
| John are you running EMU or something? Get any power gains out of running lpg or straight propane (if you do run propane)? |
John Stafford
DieHard Qld. Soarer UZZ31 GT-L V8 and a UZZ32 # 514
Posts: 842 Reg: 02-2010
| No Scott, haven't got a piggy back or anything,so not special gains with timing. That would be great as if you go that way there certainly is more power and better economy. Have only run the pump LPG. I have heard that if I could get straight propane it would better. How do you go about getting that? I have wondered about getting a big Origin tank at home. What do you think and how do you fill from that if you went that way? I use LPG stove gas in Thailand at about 52 cents per ltr compared with petrol at about $1.35/ltr in my 2JZ powered VL commodore. |
Scott Vim
DieHard Vic Soarer (1uz) Chaser (1jz)
Posts: 896 Reg: 12-2010
| I haven't done any advances in timing for propane yet but being that pure propane has an octane of 112 (source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating). Butane is a fair bit lower. They blend the two because butane is cheaper but they don't lower the price just increase the profits. Butane doesn't work good in cooler climates. Something to do with it's freezing point is much higher then propane. So generally in the winter months they run a higher percentage of propane and summer is more like 50/50. In hotter climates it would more likely stay around the 50/50 mark. I have a place near my work called supagas that sells bbq gas (aka propane) by the bottle or by the pump. They have just 3 bowsers on them it says PROPANE. The price never goes up and down it's set by the start of the month. Usually it's the same price sometimes towards the end of the week when petrol stations jack the price it's a bit cheaper. Currently it's 69.9 for pure propane. Now vapour injection we lose the expanding heat absorption effect. With fuel you get heat absorption from the petrol vaporising. This has already happened with vapor injection so this cooling effect (reducing temperatures and knock) is lost. Liquid injection has this advantage against fuel, coupled with octane gain would be better then e85 in theory. I've seen decent gains with liquid injection and stardard lpg. Though it doesn't do better then e85 propane should exceed that of e85. I think the octane of lpg depending on the mix would be between 100-102RON. My guess with vapour (cooling effect lost) and straight propane 112 octane I should see gains with advance but not huge ones. I have an m90 so with the high octane with avoid knock but will not keep heat down so I'm guessing no more then 175rwkw to 190rwkw at best. Liquid injection with straight propane I think will surprise people and blow them away when tuned properly with full advance. My plan will be to advance timing especially for propane. |
John Stafford
DieHard Qld. Soarer UZZ31 GT-L V8 and a UZZ32 # 514
Posts: 843 Reg: 02-2010
| Thanks for the info Scott. We don't have Supergas here in Qld. and it seems that the government here doesn't allow straight LPG for vehicles? I couldn't find any clues on google, maybe someone else on here might be able to advise for Brisbane and if it is legal and if so how to get it into your car. Doesn't look likely? |
Scott Vim
DieHard Vic Soarer (1uz) Chaser (1jz)
Posts: 898 Reg: 12-2010
| Looks like you dohttp://supagas.net.au Beenleigh and Rockhampton and a couple of others. |
John Stafford
DieHard Qld. Soarer UZZ31 GT-L V8 and a UZZ32 # 514
Posts: 844 Reg: 02-2010
| these places are a long way from me. If there was a way to get it from the home tank into the car I could go that way but as far as I know you could not empty the big tank past a certain point even if you had the car fill connection, so no go |
Scott Vim
Goo Roo Vic Soarer (1uz) Chaser (1jz)
Posts: 1268 Reg: 12-2010
| Just an update. I made 205rwkw on petrol with a little more boost and water injection. At this power level the LPG system runs out of flow at around 4500 rpm. Being vapour it does not have any tank fuel pumps. I fixed the miss fire by putting in colder and 0.8mmmm gapped plugs. Only a g LPG it had this slight mismisfire. LPG is harder to ignite. The system is now payed off. I do a few kms in my Soarer so it's worth it. It runs great and its smooth and you cannot feel the change to petrol. Wouldn't mind the liquid injection for the power gain though. |
John Stafford
DieHard Qld. Soarer UZZ31 GT-L V8 and a Ford Territory Ghia AWD
Posts: 881 Reg: 02-2010
| Your figures are good Scott, I still get a kind of turbo effect coming in with my 31. showing the slower ignition, I suppose but it goes well, no complaints but not quite as good as petrol I think. I probably only save about 30% on fuel with the prices having risen for LPG but still worth it after the install price has been paid off. A long term thing of coarse, only for those who really want to keep their Soarer for a long time. |
Scott Vim
Goo Roo Vic Soarer (1uz) Chaser (1jz)
Posts: 1270 Reg: 12-2010
| With the price of LPG at .60 cents and premium at 1.50+ I'm at least at half my running cost. It probably runs better on LPG. If it didn't run out of flow I would assume it would make the same or a touch more power on vapour. The lesson here though is vapour is more reliable and cheaper but is suited for non modified lapplications. My tuner has seen liquid injection making similar figures to that of e85. A few years down the track I'll either turn it into liquid injection or piss the gas off completely and run e85. |
Rob Charles
TryHard Victoria V8 UZZ31
Posts: 152 Reg: 07-2014
| I've just had a huge bourbon - bear with me Just throwing this in here, probably unrelated ~ From what I experienced in other vehicles, you use 2x the amount of gas compared to petrol. If gas is 60 cents per liter, you need $1.20 worth to do the same distance as $1.50 worth of premium 98 ron fuel as such (1 L). On fuel, you get 100% power. On gas, you lose power and use 2x as much. Gas is around 80 cents a litre here from memory... maybe it's even close to 1.00 again, I'm unsure as I have not used gas for a year or so. Let's say gas is 80 cents a litre. You can use $1.60 worth of gas, or you can use $1.60 worth of petrol. It sort of all adds up the same in the end... It's not really worth putting a Soarer (or any car) on LPG now unless you really really plan to drive it quite a lot. The LPG savings will not outweigh the cost of the conversion over time. Did that make sense or should i drink more?
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Scott Vim
Goo Roo Vic Soarer (1uz) Chaser (1jz)
Posts: 1272 Reg: 12-2010
| I consume 15% more LPG not double. And I do not lose any power with my setup. Some systems like liquid injection gain power. |
Tom Richards
Goo Roo nsw V8
Posts: 2018 Reg: 08-2005
| drink more, you may make more sense! |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo North Island G6E Turbo
Posts: 6993 Reg: 10-2005
| And get rid of the bear that's with you before it eats you. |
Rob Charles
TryHard Victoria V8 UZZ31
Posts: 163 Reg: 07-2014
| I love my bourbon! So, took notice of gas prices today! 60 cents a litre or less! Every time i get an lpg car, lpg is around 1 dollar. Whenever I sell an lpg car, lpg is back to 60 cents. Sigh. So, at 60 cents a litre, it's a little better. However, 98 ron fuel is only $1.30 or so also. It still isn't worth running it on gas really. Lack of power, and 2x gas used as opposed to full strength petrol... Now, driving a Soarer - you don't want a lack of power. Even if you don't mind it - you will still drive it like a soarer, and still use twice the amount of LPG to petrol, thus equalling the same amount spent in petrol as such (which also gives you 100% power). If you are using $1.30 of fuel, and lpg uses twice as much at $0.60 - you are using $1.20 worth of LPG instead of $1.30 worth of 98ron fuel. If the car has a top notch lpg system, and uses less than the above - you will probably save a little cash over the year. (only 10 or similar cents each liter though). Sooo... How long will it take you to recoup the cost of a $3000 dollar lpg system through cheaper fuel at a saving of 50 cents or so per fill-up? Probably 2-3 years Now, if you bought a Soarer (or any car) already on LPG and didn't spend 3k on it, you are in a win win situation. |
Tom Richards
Goo Roo nsw V8
Posts: 2041 Reg: 08-2005
| you do not use twice as much LPG!!! |
Scott Vim
Goo Roo Vic Soarer (1uz) Chaser (1jz)
Posts: 1290 Reg: 12-2010
| After the 3rd time reading he finally gets it. If you were only .10 cents a litre better off it would only save you about $5 a week doing 600kms. This would take 10 years to pay off. Mine was payed off in 18 months doing about 400kms a week. So at the current prices I used no where near double for this to work out. |
Rob Charles
TryHard Victoria V8 UZZ31
Posts: 166 Reg: 07-2014
| I stand by my words above. I got it the first time. Also, you do use 2x the amount of gas as opposed to petrol, and if not quite 2x the amount, we can say 1.8x the amount to be safe Either way - not really worth it unless buying a car already converted to lpg.
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Tom Richards
Goo Roo nsw V8
Posts: 2042 Reg: 08-2005
| rob, your usage figures are crap. I have had 4 LPG cars, none used double. No where near it. |
Scott Vim
Goo Roo Vic Soarer (1uz) Chaser (1jz)
Posts: 1292 Reg: 12-2010
| I'm telling you Rob I went from 11.5L/100km on petrol to 14L/100km. That's 20% or 1.2x. That's worst case, often it returns better then that. I put my car on LPG and it has paid off after about 18 months. I cut my fuel bill in half. Going from $80 a week to $40. It's worth it for me because I'm keeping the car. I stand by everything I've said. Real world results not speculation. |
John Stafford
DieHard Qld. Soarer UZZ31 GT-L V8 and a Ford Territory Ghia AWD
Posts: 884 Reg: 02-2010
| I have to agree with Tom and Scott Rob. LPG offers worthwhile savings if you are a long term owner. I paid mine off in about 2 years I think. My area north of Brisbane has high prices for both 98 and Lpg. I think I save at least 30% and by using LPG. I have decided that I do lack a little performance unless I turn the LPG up to get the same acceleration. That makes it much less economical. I can tune it to put in some petrol under full throttle if that extra bit of power is what I really need at times. In my opinion the savings that I get are worth it at the end of the day. |
Scott Vim
Goo Roo Vic Soarer (1uz) Chaser (1jz)
Posts: 1294 Reg: 12-2010
| John you can tune it yourself? Pretty cool. |
John Stafford
DieHard Qld. Soarer UZZ31 GT-L V8 and a Ford Territory Ghia AWD
Posts: 885 Reg: 02-2010
| Yes, I am not a pro at it but have gotten the hang of some of the parameters that I can change. It just takes patience with yourself. With the Stag unit you can increase or decrease the amount of LPG at chosen intervals and put petrol in when you want it. You can up the fuel overall or down it. There is more that you can do than I have mastered but I got the hang of it in the end after lots of mucking around. When I had my innovate oxy sensor and gauge I could tell my stoic ratio as I drove and tune on the fly from that info at every throttle opening but have sold that now, didn't really need it once I got the hang of things. |