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  Soarer Central * Mechanical - V8 * SMT6 Piggyback ECU finally working V8 SC400 * Archive through April 06, 2006 Previous Previous    Next Next  

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Peter Taplin
Tinkerer
Vic
UZZ32 V8 Supercharged & UZZ32 V8 NA

Posts: 22
Reg: 08-2005

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Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 08:43 am, by:  Peter Taplin (Mrfourwd) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Guys

As people are now getting close to installing there units I have been getting some emails re: installation etc so over the next few days I will try to answer these on the Forum so all can hopefully benefit, I would also welcome comment on these instructions as I am sure there are people who will be able to contribute to our collective understanding of the processes involved..
Peter Taplin
Tinkerer
Vic
UZZ32 V8 Supercharged & UZZ32 V8 NA

Posts: 23
Reg: 08-2005

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Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 09:05 am, by:  Peter Taplin (Mrfourwd) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Anish
I can provide a std map for you to load with global specs, the tuning map I have is for the boosted car so I will mod that for you to suit the NA version, It will need advance adding in right through the range and some fuel pulled out, once you have it loaded go for a drive with someone else driving!!! Find a steep hill and load up the engine as heavily as possible and ensure that there is no audible ping, if you hear any pinging pull out at least 3 degrees at a time and retest, adjust the values around the map value to ensure no jumps in adjustment occur, once you have done this reset the ecu by removing the battery terminal for 5 mins and reconnecting it, drive the car fairly hard and check for pinging and go through the same procedure again until you have the ECU reset and no pinging evident once it is reconnected.. This way your engine will be safe until you have it tuned on a dyno, it will also make the tune cheaper as most of the base work is done..
Also I did not answer your question re: the wiring, "it should be the same" but check the schematic and colour coding against your car if the wires are the wrong colour then the diagram is wrong for your vehicle, I do not believe this will be the case.
Please remember that the load (Throttle) for your car will not be from a map sensor but from the TPS
as your car is normally aspirated..

I will put the maps up for download from
www.lexus.aus.as it may take a few days to finalise all the pdf's and get them uploaded.
Peter Taplin
Tinkerer
Vic
UZZ32 V8 Supercharged & UZZ32 V8 NA

Posts: 24
Reg: 08-2005

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Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 09:16 am, by:  Peter Taplin (Mrfourwd) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Anish Asked

If I detect pinging, do I need to remove timing from all 64 cells or just in the WOT column?

Answer
The map is a grid "see pic" so as the load and rpm increase the cursor point moves across the map you adjust the timing at the grid point relating to the point at which the car pinged.. and the grid points surrounding it.


Upload


Is the timing advance rpm and load dependant or just rpm dependant?
Answer
Both load and rpm

Does the soarer ecu only operate in open loop once warmed up based on RPM or TPS position? What are the change over values (RPM or TPS value)?
Answer
No Idea! my guess would be in closed loop at idle and open loop on cruise, I do not believe this is relevant as having the ECU adjust fuel on cruise or at idle can only be good.. Comments here would be good maybe we can all learn something..

Also, does the smt6 map only come into effect when the coolant temperature reach operating (or a preset) value?
Answer
The SMT6 does have cooling sensor control I will have to read up on this section as some functionality alters depending on the mode the SMT6 is operating in I will post an answer later.
Peter Taplin
Tinkerer
Vic
UZZ32 V8 Supercharged & UZZ32 V8 NA

Posts: 25
Reg: 08-2005

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Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 09:32 am, by:  Peter Taplin (Mrfourwd) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another pic this time of the map grid on my boosted UZZ32


Upload
Damien Smith
TryHard
NSW
Manual UZZ31

Posts: 462
Reg: 07-2005

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Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 09:35 am, by:  Damien Smith (Damien) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Because the load will be taken from TPS does than mean everyone can remove their AFM?

Great info - thanks for helping with a base map.
Peter Taplin
Tinkerer
Vic
UZZ32 V8 Supercharged & UZZ32 V8 NA

Posts: 26
Reg: 08-2005

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Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 09:40 am, by:  Peter Taplin (Mrfourwd) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No the AFM ( I presume AFM is another word for the Air Mass Sensor ?)is required to adjust fuel mixtures the discussion so far has just been about timing, the SMT6 is T'd into the wiring for the air mass sensor this signal is then modified and passed to the ECU with the grid value applied.
Peter Taplin
Tinkerer
Vic
UZZ32 V8 Supercharged & UZZ32 V8 NA

Posts: 27
Reg: 08-2005

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Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 09:47 am, by:  Peter Taplin (Mrfourwd) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You will see 3 tabs at the top of the map grid screen
The first is Analog map
This is the fuel adjustment map for the Frequency Air Mass sensor. The naming of the maps is confusing because when you change modes the map function changes but the name remains the same.
The Second is the Injection map
This is not a fuel adjustment as the name suggests but an output from which you can drive extra injectors,NOS,Water Injection etc and map it to the RPM and load ..very useful addition..
The Third is as the name suggests timing
Damien Smith
TryHard
NSW
Manual UZZ31

Posts: 463
Reg: 07-2005

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Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 09:55 am, by:  Damien Smith (Damien) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm a bit confused - I thought the amount of load is measured from the amount of air going through the sensor if that says in place then the TPS is used for accelerator enrichment? I guess I should read a manual :-)

To remove the Air Mass sensor does ones need to use a MAP sensor like your setup?
Peter Taplin
Tinkerer
Vic
UZZ32 V8 Supercharged & UZZ32 V8 NA

Posts: 28
Reg: 08-2005

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Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 10:03 am, by:  Peter Taplin (Mrfourwd) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Damien
You will get the hang of it

Load is either manifold vacuum/pressure or throttle position.
The Air Mass Sensor reads the amount of air not load, the fuel mixture is determined by calculating the amount of air going through the airmass sensor over load, what the SMt6 does is adjust the signal from the air mass sensor by a grid value to fool the ECU into thinking there is more or less air going in the ECU then adjusts the fuel to the corrected to air mass... end effect is richer or leaner mixtures as required.
Damien Smith
TryHard
NSW
Manual UZZ31

Posts: 464
Reg: 07-2005

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Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 11:06 am, by:  Damien Smith (Damien) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK - I'm just used to seeing systems that use the same inputs for ignition and fuel.

The MAP-ECU that I currently run has let me remove the Mass Air sensor and calculate the fuel mixture from MAP vs RPM. Is this possible with the SMT6 to your knowledge?
Peter Taplin
Tinkerer
Vic
UZZ32 V8 Supercharged & UZZ32 V8 NA

Posts: 29
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Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 11:14 am, by:  Peter Taplin (Mrfourwd) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is not possible using the SMT6 Perfect Power have a unit that will do this though. What is required is a PB that will learn the AirMASS signal and then allow that signal to be modified using the MAP/RPM values and pass that modified signal to the ECU.
Damien Smith
TryHard
NSW
Manual UZZ31

Posts: 465
Reg: 07-2005

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Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 11:25 am, by:  Damien Smith (Damien) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cool - looks like my MAP-ECU stays :-)
Peter Taplin
Tinkerer
Vic
UZZ32 V8 Supercharged & UZZ32 V8 NA

Posts: 30
Reg: 08-2005

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Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 11:38 am, by:  Peter Taplin (Mrfourwd) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Damien
Are you going to the Canberra meet at Easter?
If so I would love to catch up and check out your 5 spd conversion.
Damien Smith
TryHard
NSW
Manual UZZ31

Posts: 466
Reg: 07-2005

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Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 11:46 am, by:  Damien Smith (Damien) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am going but whether my car will be debatable... working through some tuning issues and time is running out.
Damien Smith
TryHard
NSW
Manual UZZ31

Posts: 467
Reg: 07-2005

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Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 11:48 am, by:  Damien Smith (Damien) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

David Vaughan will have his 5 speed manual V8 there as well.
Damien Smith
TryHard
NSW
Manual UZZ31

Posts: 470
Reg: 07-2005

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Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 01:12 pm, by:  Damien Smith (Damien) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, I just ignore it - doesn't stop any other warnings coming up. When I eventually get my clutch changed I might rope Mark in to work something out as the car will be in Neil's workshop for a while (will be getting a lightened flywheel at the same time).
David Vaughan
Goo Roo
ACT
UZZ31 V8 manual and Lexus IS300

Posts: 1794
Reg: 07-2005

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Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 01:35 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I will be there Peter. Someone will point one of us out to the other.

On the ECT issue, I certainly want it fixed, not only because it means I must press a button to see the time (and temperature) but there are other problems as well.
  • Within the display, if you need to change the clock, you must press Scroll, quickly make clock adjustments and hope you get them finished before it goes back to ECT.
  • If you press Scroll, you can not switch to Fuel until ECT has returned after a timeout.
  • If you are using auto-retraction of the steering wheel, then when you put the key in the ignition and turn it on before the wheel is in final position then it will just stop where it is and forget about moving further. You have to remove the key and reinsert it to recover the proper position. Previously, you could start the car while the wheel was still adjusting.
  • Memory seat functions no longer work. This one really pisses me off.
The last two were not expected by Neil. Does your car have these functions Damien?

I have been waiting for Mark and Neil to get settled into their new workshop but then I plan to bang on doors until we can get some fixes.
David Vaughan
Goo Roo
ACT
UZZ31 V8 manual and Lexus IS300

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Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 01:38 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another problem I forgot above was that you do not get the usual warning light when fuel drops below 10L. The first warning is below 5L when the Klingon Fuel Empty interchanges with ECT. The fact that you are by now accustomed to ignoring the ECT display, because it is no longer very useful, makes the warning even less obvious.
Damien Smith
TryHard
NSW
Manual UZZ31

Posts: 471
Reg: 07-2005

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Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 01:50 pm, by:  Damien Smith (Damien) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I also get the first 2 but they don't bother me. I replaced the standard electric seats with WRX seats a couple of years ago so the memory seat function isn't applicable and I have a Momo sports wheel so I don't have the auto retraction on to notice if it works or not.

However, our cars a totally different beasts - mine is a perpetual work in progress and not a daily driver :-)
David Vaughan
Goo Roo
ACT
UZZ31 V8 manual and Lexus IS300

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Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 02:01 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

and my car has another occasional driver, hence the significance of memory seats. I do about two thirds of my annual kilometres in this car. Around 33k between them last year.
Peter Taplin
Tinkerer
Vic
UZZ32 V8 Supercharged & UZZ32 V8 NA

Posts: 31
Reg: 08-2005

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Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 02:04 pm, by:  Peter Taplin (Mrfourwd) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi David That will be great to catch up I have wanted to check out the manual conversion for a while as Neil is going to do mine soon..
I have just put mine back together after some mods to the supercharger, I now have 10lb of boost and still able to tune it with the SMT6 which is huge, the next step is the water/methanol injection, push the timing back up and it should fly Even now the trnasmission cannot handle the power the changes at full throttle which at 5 lb were firm are now very slow and slipping but the car is super quick even now, even with the 285's michellin pilot sports on the rear the rear is squirming out under full power even at 100kph
Peter Taplin
Tinkerer
Vic
UZZ32 V8 Supercharged & UZZ32 V8 NA

Posts: 32
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Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 02:07 pm, by:  Peter Taplin (Mrfourwd) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They are huge issues for me as well David I cannot see the point of modifying the car and losing functionality, I am sure there will be a way around these issues eventually :-))
Damien Smith
TryHard
NSW
Manual UZZ31

Posts: 472
Reg: 07-2005

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Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 02:07 pm, by:  Damien Smith (Damien) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Peter Taplin wrote on Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 02:04 pm:

even with the 285's michellin pilot sports on the rear the rear is squirming out under full power even at 100kph




Roger Costello
TryHard
WA
UZZ31 V8 Limited

Posts: 215
Reg: 07-2005

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Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 03:38 pm, by:  Roger Costello (Roger) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Peter

The stock 1UZFE runs closed loop except:

During engine starting

During cold engine operation

During moderate to heavy load operation

During acceleration and deceleration

It is better where possible to minimise mixture adjustments using a piggyback ECU during closed loop operation as the Toyota ECU will try and re-calibrate its long term trim to compensate.

This is a single variable which can add or subtract up to 20% fuel from the whole fuel map before triggering a fault code. It takes hours rather than seconds to compensate. Short term trim is the instantaneous adjustment based on oxygen sensor readings and the Toyota ECU, if it is consistently using short term trim in closed loop operation changes the long term trim value to compensate.

If you remap fuel with a piggyback ECU in closed loop operation the Toyota ECU will try and "fix" it. This is not good as it takes a long time to settle on the new value and it will affect the open loop settings as well.

A typical scenario is that you lean the mixture out at full throttle and part throttle with the piggy back ECU. The Toyota ECU sees the part throttle closed loop map requiring constant enrichment trim to keep the air fuel ratio correct and eventually adjusts the overall long term trim to a richer setting. As this may happen long after the car is off the dyno your careful open loop lean trim applied with the piggyback ECU is negated as the Toyota ECU richens everything up to compensate for the closed loop lean mixture.

To avoid this it is important to work out at what point in the maps the Toyota ECU is going open loop and restricting your fuel trim to those regions. On a dyno you can see open loop on a stock 1UZFE easily as the mixture is fairly rich on those sections of the map (except during deceleration). Try and avoid trimming fuel in any of the closed loop areas and the outcome will be a lot more stable and predictable.

The points at which the maps go open loop vary with different model years and corresponding ECU revisions. Also later ECU's from 96 to 97 are reputed to run leaner in open loop than earlier revisions. I would only use someone else's information on which sections of the map are open loop if their ECU is the same revision as your own.

Regards

Roger

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