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Mike Beck
Goo Roo
New Zealand
E36 Coupe

Posts: 5126
Reg: 11-2005

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Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 04:21 pm, by:  Mike Beck (Gold_40gt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's a walk in the park backwards.
Christian Somerville
Goo Roo
South Australia
UZZ31 V8 LTD

Posts: 1013
Reg: 03-2009

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Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 10:54 pm, by:  Christian Somerville (Csomers) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

mmmmm
James Buchan
DieHard
Vic
V8

Posts: 938
Reg: 10-2008

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Thursday, October 28, 2010 - 09:07 pm, by:  James Buchan (Jrbuch) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've got the rotors and calipers. Do I need a basic fitting kit, and I don't need new dust sheilds do I? I've read about them being cut with an angle grinder.
Allan Langford
TryHard
Vic
UZZ31

Posts: 147
Reg: 05-2010

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Thursday, October 28, 2010 - 09:50 pm, by:  Allan Langford (Allan) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

make sure you get front and rear fitting kits, mine squealed like a bitch while I was waiting for them to arrive from japan! for the dust shields I got new ones for the front and just bent the rear ones back to clear the disc and trimmed the corner off for the calliper to clear.
Sebastian Grant
Goo Roo
nsw
soarer TT

Posts: 1324
Reg: 01-2008

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Monday, November 01, 2010 - 08:05 pm, by:  Sebastian Grant (Saabg) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Ali Saeed wrote on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 02:41 am:

dont see a point in retaining the soarer 2 pots, even if it was possible.




To get a little better brake bias. I'd imagine soarer fronts are close to supra rears in stopping power.
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 1839
Reg: 10-2005

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Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 10:24 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Sebastian Grant wrote on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 08:05 pm:

To get a little better brake bias. I'd imagine soarer fronts are close to supra rears in stopping power.




I think you will find this would be a tragic experiment not to mention the difficulties of mounting and handbrake.

Supra 4 pots have less stopping power (slightly) than stock soarer 2 pot fronts.

Increasing the rear braking force by roughly 50% and reducing the front braking force by 5% would put the car totally out of balance and extremely rear biased.
Ali Saeed
Goo Roo
WA
UZZ31

Posts: 2940
Reg: 09-2007

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Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 10:31 pm, by:  Ali Saeed (Ali) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

less stopping power?
Allan Langford
TryHard
Vic
UZZ31

Posts: 161
Reg: 05-2010

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Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 11:07 pm, by:  Allan Langford (Allan) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Damian Ware wrote on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 10:24 pm:

Supra 4 pots have less stopping power (slightly) than stock soarer 2 pot fronts.




dude, put down the crack pipe! the 4 pots have about 60% MORE stopping power then then 2 pots
Mike Beck
Goo Roo
New Zealand
E36 Coupe

Posts: 5166
Reg: 11-2005

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Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 09:42 am, by:  Mike Beck (Gold_40gt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Less?

So when I had 315mm Celsior 4 pots, why did my car stop faster than with stock 285mm 2 pots?
Matthew Crawford
DieHard
Victoria
JZA80 T88-38GK

Posts: 644
Reg: 03-2007

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Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 10:05 am, by:  Matthew Crawford (Doink) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Damian Ware wrote on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 10:24 pm:

Supra 4 pots have less stopping power (slightly) than stock soarer 2 pot fronts.




Congratulations on picking this 'fact' out of your rear end

http://www.planetsoarer.com/suprabrakesII/SupraBrakeUpgrade.htm
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 1846
Reg: 10-2005

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Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 12:19 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know the reference for the info on planet soarer but it doesn't seem right based on my personal experiences and brake physics.

Suggest you guys read the following.

http://www.scirocco.org/faq/brakes/pulpfriction/pfpage1.html


http://soarercentral.com/sc-forum/messages/83418/310338.html?1275522892

Brake math is fairly easy you can calculate the braking force yourself there are also calculators online.

Soarer stock 2 pots have 44.4mm piston diameter, supra 4 pots have 42.8mm.

Soarer rotor is 296mm diameter supra is 323mm.

Do the math prove me wrong.
Allan Langford
TryHard
Vic
UZZ31

Posts: 162
Reg: 05-2010

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Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 01:14 pm, by:  Allan Langford (Allan) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

would you like to do a comparison?

while a UZZ32 is going to have better anti-dive then my UZZ31 I'll gladly meet up for a 100kph - 0kph timed test if you like?

we will get someone to video it and post the results here?
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 1847
Reg: 10-2005

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Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 01:28 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Allan Langford wrote on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 01:14 pm:

would you like to do a comparison?

while a UZZ32 is going to have better anti-dive then my UZZ31 I'll gladly meet up for a 100kph - 0kph timed test if you like?

we will get someone to video it and post the results here?




Different weight car, different tyres and different suspension, it would not be a valid test.

You could do the test with the same car same tyres same suspension with exactly the same braking system apart from swapping between stock brakes and supra 4 pots using the same compound brake pads (with brand new rotors and pads for each test) then compare the results. Or alternatively use a brake dyno.

I would be more than happy to help with a valid test as per the alternatives I have suggested.

I would also be more than happy to supply a set of LS400 4 pots for the purpose of comparsion.

But before I will as I have already done the above test with my own car between LS400 4 pots and I have driven cars with supra 4 pots and I know which setup stops best (as I have detailed the results in other threads) do the math if I mis calculated and I am wrong prove it.

It isn't that hard and should only take about 10 minutes. There is plenty of information on autocross websites and kit car buildings about the physics and calculations of braking systems not to mention real world results.
Clayton Carlyle
Tinkerer
NSW
v8 soarer

Posts: 68
Reg: 04-2009

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Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 03:45 pm, by:  Clayton Carlyle (Clayton) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There's so much incorrect information on here. Supra 4 pots only come off 97+ models w 2 pot rears & 323mm rotors.
Damien, the supra brakes are exactly as Allan said. They have 60% more stopping power than standard.
The standard brakes are a joke.
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 1849
Reg: 10-2005

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Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 04:16 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Clayton Carlyle wrote on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 03:45 pm:

Supra 4 pots only come off 97+ models w 2 pot rears & 323mm rotors




May 1995 is when the 17" wheels and bigger brakes were fitted to supras.

As to 60% stopping power this is incorrect do some research read the links I posted and find out for yourself.

As to the standard brakes being a joke they are actually quite good but the OEM toyota non aspestoes pads are very poor.
Ali Saeed
Goo Roo
WA
UZZ31

Posts: 2944
Reg: 09-2007

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Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 04:36 pm, by:  Ali Saeed (Ali) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

so i assume everyone who says they stop better has undergone the placebo effect?
Nathan Richardson
TryHard
N.T.
UZZ32 #445 (V8 Supercherged 5Speed. 291RWKW)

Posts: 347
Reg: 02-2006

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Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 04:37 pm, by:  Nathan Richardson (Richtheblack) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, now I am confused!

So I should put my standard UZZ32 brakes back on then? Anyone want my Supra brakes?
Clayton Carlyle
Tinkerer
NSW
v8 soarer

Posts: 69
Reg: 04-2009

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Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 04:51 pm, by:  Clayton Carlyle (Clayton) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nathan, how does your V500 wolf perform? Have you had any problems with tuning etc. Did you get the plug & play?
I'm about to order one & would really appreciate any advice you have. I was going adaptronic but wolf is better on paper????
Peter Nitschke
Junk Filterer
South Australia
UZZ30 UZZ31

Posts: 11903
Reg: 11-2004

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Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 05:12 pm, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Ali Saeed wrote on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 04:36 pm:

so i assume everyone who says they stop better has undergone the placebo effect?


It's probably fair to say that in nearly all cases, new brake pads and a flush were performed with the upgrade which would also help to make a difference.

My own experience with brake upgrades, is that once completed, you go and run the pads in as per instructions, then brake like nuts to test them out and pat yourself on the back.

But did you ever test them that much before hand?

So yeah, placebo and other factors could definitely count.

I am also firmly in the group that says pads and better fluid are the best upgrade.
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 1850
Reg: 10-2005

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Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 05:36 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Ali Saeed wrote on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 04:36 pm:

so i assume everyone who says they stop better has undergone the placebo effect?




As Peter has said this is pretty much the case.


Nathan Richardson wrote on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 04:37 pm:

So I should put my standard UZZ32 brakes back on then?




Where you running out of thermal mass with the stock brakes?
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 1852
Reg: 10-2005

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Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 05:48 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Typically when fitting 4 pot fixed calipers over 2 pot floating due to the nature of the caliper design the 4 pots will have less braking force.

Very common in WRX's and often experienced by autocross guys.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1608340

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1874355

I am posting this information so you don't spend money you didn't have to, you don't have to believe me it is up to you how you choose to spend your money.

But as they say the writing is on the wall, if you are thinking I am on 'crack' or something to this effect just ask yourself this question why would I bother as clearly most people are not prepaired to believe what I am posting dispite what evidence I have posted to support what I have experienced.

The brakes math is very simple I suggest you do it yourself (physics of braking systems in the link below) and research upgrades before investing in them good luck.

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/tech_white_papers.shtml
Nathan Richardson
TryHard
N.T.
UZZ32 #445 (V8 Supercherged 5Speed. 291RWKW)

Posts: 348
Reg: 02-2006

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Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 06:11 pm, by:  Nathan Richardson (Richtheblack) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Clayton Carlyle wrote on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 04:51 pm:

Nathan, how does your V500 wolf perform? Have you had any problems with tuning etc. Did you get the plug & play?
I'm about to order one & would really appreciate any advice you have. I was going adaptronic but wolf is better on paper????




Hey Clayton,

I've had no issues at all and my install was the first time Bullet Cars used the V500 and they were very impressed.

I did have a bit of a flat spot when cold and the engine stalling as it would come off overrun fuel cut, but I just plugged the laptop in, went for a drive and I had it sorted pretty quickly. On that note the software is user friendly.


Damian Ware wrote on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 05:36 pm:

Where you running out of thermal mass with the stock brakes?




Well no, but I have never really pushed the stock brakes too much. I fitted the Supra brakes as what I thought would be an upgrade as I want to start doing some track days and I figured it a good idea as I have twice the factory power but it may have been a wast of time and money!

I'm surprised I have never come across this debate in the past!
Nathan Richardson
TryHard
N.T.
UZZ32 #445 (V8 Supercherged 5Speed. 291RWKW)

Posts: 349
Reg: 02-2006

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Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 07:26 pm, by:  Nathan Richardson (Richtheblack) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Damian Ware wrote on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 12:19 pm:

Brake math is fairly easy you can calculate the braking force yourself there are also calculators online.

Soarer stock 2 pots have 44.4mm piston diameter, supra 4 pots have 42.8mm.

Soarer rotor is 296mm diameter supra is 323mm.

Do the math prove me wrong.




It still does not look right to me.

Yes the Supra pistons are slightly smaller but there is twice as many of them. If you were consider the diameter of all the pistons added together as in one of the formulas from your link, the effective piston diameter of the Supra brakes would be almost 93% larger than the 2 pots and therefore must have more clamping force.

And the larger rotor would give a greater arm increasing the amount of torque produced.

This is the way I understand it anyway.
Clayton Carlyle
Tinkerer
NSW
v8 soarer

Posts: 70
Reg: 04-2009

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Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 07:51 pm, by:  Clayton Carlyle (Clayton) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nathan, yeah I think I'm sold on the V500. I like the idea of easy tuning & 8 injector outlets.

Damien, I have read the forum but the maths you suggest don't add up for me. It IS VERY interesting and I too have never thought about it this way.
You do have a point.
But the stopping power of my supra brakes compared to the old 276mm V8 brakes is mind-blowing.
Clayton Carlyle
Tinkerer
NSW
v8 soarer

Posts: 71
Reg: 04-2009

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Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 07:55 pm, by:  Clayton Carlyle (Clayton) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry Damian I keep spelling your name wrong. No disrespect
Mike Beck
Goo Roo
New Zealand
E36 Coupe

Posts: 5171
Reg: 11-2005

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Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 08:04 pm, by:  Mike Beck (Gold_40gt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually after reading up, I think Damian is on the right track with what he says. It seems brake bias is also overlooked when it comes to upgrading.

I believe what Ali said regarding the placebo effect also comes into play here....

When you think about upgrading brakes, you're going to be putting in new pads/fluid/brake lines (maybe) which make a huge difference alone, giving the impression the better feel/performance is purely down to the new big brakes.
Allan Langford
TryHard
Vic
UZZ31

Posts: 164
Reg: 05-2010

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Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 09:01 pm, by:  Allan Langford (Allan) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

all this talk is getting us no closer to resolving this issue... anyone with a UZZ31 in vic with serviced stock brakes care to come forward?

it comes down to 4 pistons of almost the same size as the 2 pistons in the stock calliper acting on a much larger rotor with the added benefits of a more effective design of 4 pistons Vs sliding calliper...

I am sure Toyota did not decide to fit less effective brakes to the later JZA80 turbos!
Sebastian Grant
Goo Roo
nsw
soarer TT

Posts: 1330
Reg: 01-2008

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Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 09:43 pm, by:  Sebastian Grant (Saabg) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Someone posted a link here a while ago that said that the supra calipers where in the top ten in regards to braking force. I believe from memory they were behind the maclaren f1.

Damian, that doesn't take into account clamping force which should be much higher with a four pot caliper I would have thought.
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 1853
Reg: 10-2005

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Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 09:54 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Nathan Richardson wrote on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 07:26 pm:

Yes the Supra pistons are slightly smaller but there is twice as many of them. If you were consider the diameter of all the pistons added together as in one of the formulas from your link, the effective piston diameter of the Supra brakes would be almost 93% larger than the 2 pots and therefore must have more clamping force.




The calculation is based on the area of the pistons per side of the caliper.

For a fixed caliper such as 4 pot supras there is 2 pots per side to apply force from both directions. The clamping force is only calculated for one side so the area is of just 2 pots.

For a floating caliper such as the stock 2 pots the area is just the 2 pots as the caliper by design applies force from both directions but only requires pistons on one side.

Busy night but if you need further clarification I can provide details tomorrow.

Due to the above a 4 pot fixed caliper often provides no advantage over a floating 2 pot caliper (apart from the advantage of non sticking sliders). If you want to have big increase in braking force you need to move up to 6 pots which have 3 pots per side.
Sebastian Grant
Goo Roo
nsw
soarer TT

Posts: 1331
Reg: 01-2008

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Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 10:38 pm, by:  Sebastian Grant (Saabg) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Haha, just realised that the link I was referring to was already posted by Matthew.

Thanks for the info David, I guess I'll be sticking to my standard brakes then.

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