| Author |
Message |
Joshua Rao
TryHard
WA
2JZ-GE
Posts: 353
Reg: 09-2006
|
Have any later model Soarers owners had trouble with the ABS?
This is an excerpt taken from
http://www.japanautoauctions.com/blog/
"A good example of a recall that should have happened but never did was the ABS braking system that was installed on the later models of the 30 series Soarer or Lexus SC and the Crown Majesta of the same era. Talk to anyone who has knowledge of these and they will tell you they are a timebomb waiting to happen. Not a case of if but only when it will start leaking and stuff up. My Japanese parts supplier was very candid about it. "These things always break, the design was flawed." So why wasn’t there a recall? "Toyota covered it up, that’s an expensive part to replace." Yes it is. And they won’t supply you the offending shaft or part of the unit that is dud. You have to buy the whole brake ABS unit with master cylinder and pump, weighs 18kg and costs Y268,000.
The other disturbing thing about this is the safety aspect that is being ignored. If an ABS unit and pump lose pressure and stuff up while you are on the highway at 100km/h you are going to have to stand on those brakes really hard to stop the car. The cop out is that to do a recall then a certain number of cars have to have the same fault and if sales of these cars were not particularly high, as in the case of the later model Soarer, then that number isn’t reached."
Read the whole article at the above site for more background information.
True or BS? |
Dave Rose
TryHard
wa
uzz31 v8
Posts: 189
Reg: 03-2007
|
Joshua
Later models .....do you know the year??..DR |
Joshua Rao
TryHard
WA
2JZ-GE
Posts: 354
Reg: 09-2006
|
Sorry Dave, I'm not sure. I anticipate 3rd series 96-00. |
Brian Kelly
TryHard
Colorado USA
SC300 5-speed
Posts: 289
Reg: 04-2007
|
Its become very apparent that Toyota's quality has started to slip in the last 10-15 years.
The ABS on my dad's 1999 Land Cruiser went out a few days ago and is going to cost 2000 USD to replace. That thing is becoming as much of a money pit as Dave Billings' Lexus...
I think in the last six months it has broken down three times. |
Callum Finch
Goo Roo
WA
Soarer TT & Corolla
Posts: 3690
Reg: 09-2005
|
I dont have ABS so suck it. 
=P |
Dave Billings
Goo Roo
Louisiana
SC 300, 2JZE, 5 Speed
Posts: 1012
Reg: 06-2007
|
Brian Kelly wrote on Wednesday, January 02, 2008 - 06:22 pm:That thing is becoming as much of a money pit as Dave Billings' Lexus...
Sigh...so true!! If you ever wanted to know really how much money one would need to know about just to "maintain" my SC, (note- NO performance up-grades), feel free to ask, I have ALL of the reciepts from my garage for the past 2 years! Damn gremlins...almost everything besides the block is practically brand new! Think of it, I've replaced it! No BS, lol! She has to go back for brand new $1500 injectors having the same problem I brought her in for the first time. Crap, another 2-3 weeks without her. Its been almost 5 months trying to take care of the problem. Oh well...you can't put a value on love. |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31
Posts: 3301
Reg: 10-2005
|
My understanding of brake systems is that they are always outsourced. Companies like Lucas etc generally provide the braking components as far as I'm aware - therefore Toyota would simply pass on the cost of any recall to the system supplier.
Honestly car companies can't afford "cover up" conspiricies - these people have severe engineering audits to meet, both from industry standards organisations and governments, and the liability they would face should someone die due to a part they knew was faulty - its just not worth it. Maybe in their local market, but on the international market, I highly doubt they would risk being exposed.
But people love a conspiricy theory don't they. |
Peter Nitschke
Junk Filterer
South Australia
GT4.0 V8
Posts: 8653
Reg: 11-2004
|
Do things like seals etc in the ABS go off if it isn't used occasionally? |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31
Posts: 3304
Reg: 10-2005
|
Probably - like most mechanical devices I can't imagine sitting idle forever would be good for it.
Good servicing probably helps a lot too - so many people neglect their brakes. |
Daniel Czechowski
Goo Roo
Western Australia
Soarer GT-T (sold  ) & IS300 Sports Luxury
Posts: 3282
Reg: 07-2005
|
Peter Nitschke wrote on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 02:54 pm:Do things like seals etc in the ABS go off if it isn't used occasionally?
Matthew Sharpe wrote on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 06:36 am:Probably - like most mechanical devices I can't imagine sitting idle forever would be good for it.
Does that mean you have to purposely get the car to enagge its ABS regularly? |
Callum Finch
Goo Roo
WA
Soarer TT & Corolla
Posts: 3696
Reg: 09-2005
|
Putting your foot on the brake pedal will do that, Daniel =P |
Daniel Czechowski
Goo Roo
Western Australia
Soarer GT-T (sold ) & IS300 Sports Luxury
Posts: 3283
Reg: 07-2005
|
Yeah but... I put my foot down on the brake pedal enough to make ABS work perhaps twice a year... |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31
Posts: 3316
Reg: 10-2005
|
Twice a year is better than not at all I guess. Provided you don't hit whatever you were trying to brake for. |
Daniel Czechowski
Goo Roo
Western Australia
Soarer GT-T (sold ) & IS300 Sports Luxury
Posts: 3284
Reg: 07-2005
|
Haha, I'd rather not have the need to break like that in the first place  |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 73 Corvette 4sp T-Tops
Posts: 1054
Reg: 08-2005
|
"My friend" this, some parts salesman that.
Blah blah blah.
If you believe everything you read like that article (without proof), you're crazy. Maybe find someone who works on a lot of Soarers and ask them personally. There are a lot of keyboard warrior experts out there, with either something to sell, or an ego to inflate, thinking they're knowledgable. Remember the TIF post on how turning OD off gave more power? Pffff.
Proof please. And proof that it's not one mechanic BREAKING them by doing something wrong. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 73 Corvette 4sp T-Tops
Posts: 1055
Reg: 08-2005
|
And by the looks of the other posts on that page, he's a Nissan fanboy. Surprise. |
David Vaughan
Goo Roo
ACT
V8 Ltd manual
Posts: 3618
Reg: 07-2005
|
I have just seen this thread now. I agree with Matthew and Miles.
Does the following not raise suspicions about the technical competence of the opinion?
quote:If an ABS unit and pump lose pressure and stuff up while you are on the highway at 100km/h you are going to have to stand on those brakes really hard to stop the car...
"...and stuff up..."? 
How little do you know about modern braking systems? Ever heard of mandatory split systems? Do you know that ABS makes no difference to braking force except that with it you can always safely push harder?
My current view, without further evidence, is that it is bollocks. |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31
Posts: 3318
Reg: 10-2005
|
Just posted a comment based on your post David - we'll see if he replies. |
Brian Kelly
TryHard
Colorado USA
SC300 5-speed
Posts: 294
Reg: 04-2007
|
David Vaughan wrote on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 06:35 pm:Do you know that ABS makes no difference to braking force except that with it you can always safely push harder?
Actually when the ABS on my dad's car when out, pushing the brake pedal in all the way would barely stop the car from 5 mph. We had to get it towed the the shop. |
David Vaughan
Goo Roo
ACT
V8 Ltd manual
Posts: 3620
Reg: 07-2005
|
It was not the ABS which caused that. The sole function of ABS is to release the brakes.
After complete electrical failure and subsequent loss of braking assistance I could still brake the Soarer from 60km/h. A bit of an effort for an old bloke like me but I could do it. So, if your father could barely brake from 8 km/h then is he a wimp or does he drive a truck?  If the pedal went all the way down then you had a loss of hydraulic fluid or air bleed into the system. That is a different problem from either lack of power assistance or lack of ABS. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 73 Corvette 4sp T-Tops
Posts: 1056
Reg: 08-2005
|
Yeah and exactly what part of the ABS has a "shaft"? I can maybe see it being a master cylinder failure, and it might take out all of the braking if the piston shaft snapped off or something. Other than that, if you had a single block style ABS system, a massive crack through the whole lot could do it maybe. But the article mentions a shaft. |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31
Posts: 3322
Reg: 10-2005
|
Well, no moderation, comment or feedback on my comment yet. The website is pretty poorly set up too. Really, when you look at it, its a car dealers opinion, and most car dealers know jack •••• about cars anyway. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 73 Corvette 4sp T-Tops
Posts: 1059
Reg: 08-2005
|
I see no comments?? |
Jose-Antonio Castillo
Goo Roo
NSW
Soarer VVTi
Posts: 1380
Reg: 07-2005
|
My late model Soarer does a fine job of kicking in the ABS when a nutter decides to merge in my lane on freeways. |
Brian Kelly
TryHard
Colorado USA
SC300 5-speed
Posts: 295
Reg: 04-2007
|
Maybe the ABS on his car is set up differently as it is an SUV, or maybe some related part crapped out at the same time. |
Dave Billings
Goo Roo
Louisiana
SC 300, 2JZE, 5 Speed
Posts: 1025
Reg: 06-2007
|
Just cut a hole in the floor and stop Fred Flinstone style! |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31
Posts: 3329
Reg: 10-2005
|
Miles Baker wrote on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 07:38 am:I see no comments??
It shows as waiting on moderation when I go in, so probably nobody else can see it. |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31
Posts: 3359
Reg: 10-2005
|
And here is the reply to my comment...
Matt Says:
January 7th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
“Suppress Recalls”? Failed ABS pumps causing an increased pedal pressure requirement? What a load of bollox. Learn something about the subject you are blogging on.
admin Says:
January 11th, 2008 at 12:37 am
A load of bollox eh? Matt. Perhaps you should go back to school and learn a bit of reading comprehension before telling me to learn about the subject I am blogging on. Sure if it was a computer or electrical fault in the unit it would make no difference but as I said with this unit the pump leaks and loses pressure, specifically because a brake fluid seal ••••• itself, resulting in brake fluid piddling everywhere. In some cases it is a slow dribble which isn’t so bad but in others such as the Soarer we saw it had gushed out.
Now with your obviously incredible engineering intellect would you like to explain to us (that’s me, an experienced parts supplier and probably the most knowledgable Soarer dealer in Australia) how losing brake fluid at an alarming rate won’t affect your brake performance? How are you supposed to stop? Handbrake? Because that’s about all you’ll have once you lose half the fluid and have a heap of air in the lines.
Stu Says:
January 18th, 2008 at 1:14 am
Pig’s arse Matt! , you’re full of crap! It’s a hydraulic system, how do you stop without brake fluid? Pedal goes right to the floor and you just keep on going. You’re the one full of bollox who should go learn something. |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31
Posts: 3360
Reg: 10-2005
|
And here is my reply to his reply...
I can't see how a failed ABS pump could cause the problem you describe. It’s the driver who is supplying the braking pressure (servo assisted of course) so a failed ABS pump would simply cause the ABS not to function - the brake system would still function correctly
The ABS HCU seals could possibly fail and cause a leak, but I've never heard of it happening in a Soarer, even in very old models, and again, these are unrelated to the pump - in my experience you can't blame a loss of fluid in any hydraulic system on anything else than a faulty/perished seal or corroded pipe, bore, piston etc. Sure, they can stop working, but to lose fluid indicates a simple case of entropy. Sure sometimes pistons are poorly machined, bores made out of inferior materials etc, but I do not believe this is the case with the 30 series Soarer.
In fact I have been a 30 series Soarer owner for 7 years and have been involved in the Soarer community for about 5 - in all this time, reading countless forum posts about all the various problems with Soarers as they age, I cannot once recall reading anyone complaining about losing brake fluid or having any serious problems with their ABS system on any UZZ30, UZZ31, UZZ32, JZZ30 or JZZ31 model Soarer, even in very neglected cars. Maybe they wound up stacked into a power poll somewhere and thus were never able to report on their brake failure, but I doubt it.
I very much doubt that Toyota would take the risk of covering up a fault in such a critical area of vehicle safety, particularly in a system which is used in the US market for the Lexus SC300 and SC400, where if they were proven to be neglectful, they could be held liable for vast sums of money, not to mention the PR fallout if anyone was able to prove it.
Give me some references for your blog, like where are you getting your figures from? |
Peter Nitschke
Junk Filterer
South Australia
GT4.0 V8
Posts: 8715
Reg: 11-2004
|
I think they need to understand that the ABS pistons are inline with the braking system, so leakage past the seals doesn't mean losing brake fluid out of the system. |
Luke Nieuwhof
Goo Roo
WA
Soarer TT
Posts: 2571
Reg: 07-2005
|
Matthew Sharpe wrote on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 06:47 am:most knowledgable Soarer dealer in Australia
? |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31
Posts: 3367
Reg: 10-2005
|
I guess if the ABS activated, dropped the pressure to one or more wheels, and then the pump failed to restore the pressure, you could end up with poor braking response - however I would think this would be picked up by the self test systems which do test pump pressure - you would get some kind of diagnostic message and an ABS light I would think - not sure about the Soarer system, but in most cars the ABS would just get switched off at that point and you'd have normal un-regulated braking.
If you still drive the car on the motorway with an unexplained ABS warning light on, you deserve to die.
In any case I've never heard of it happening in a Soarer, even though some of them are now 17 years old, AND its nothing like the problem he talks about in his blog - and you can't call failure in a 17 year old system a "time bomb waiting to go off" - its just old - its lasted 17 years, it's done a bloody good run.
Yeah, I thought about calling him on that comment, but he probably really believes he is number 1. |
Alan Chow
DieHard
Vic
GTT-L
Posts: 587
Reg: 12-2006
|
Should ask him about the top 10 failures on a soarer to see if he can spot any.
But then again its the internet. You'll be arguing forever. |
Daniel Czechowski
Goo Roo
Western Australia
Soarer GT-T (sold ) & IS300 Sports Luxury
Posts: 3323
Reg: 07-2005
|
Someone send this dealer link to this page...
Alan Chow wrote on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 04:57 pm:Should ask him about the top 10 failures on a soarer to see if he can spot any.
But then again its the internet. You'll be arguing forever.
LOL. We should get the resident keyboard warrior to sort him out  |
Peter Nitschke
Junk Filterer
South Australia
GT4.0 V8
Posts: 8719
Reg: 11-2004
|
Just can't help your self eh? |
Daniel Czechowski
Goo Roo
Western Australia
Soarer GT-T (sold ) & IS300 Sports Luxury
Posts: 3324
Reg: 07-2005
|
|
Joshua Rao
TryHard
WA
2JZ-GE
Posts: 389
Reg: 09-2006
|
Being the most knowledgable Soarer dealer in Australia he must do a lot of research on here, planet soarer, TIF, LSOC, ALSC and Club Lexus I'm sure  |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 73 Corvette 4sp T-Tops
Posts: 1101
Reg: 08-2005
|
Still can't get me off your mind I see.
You really are obsessed with me aren't you? |
Daniel Czechowski
Goo Roo
Western Australia
Soarer GT-T (sold ) & IS300 Sports Luxury
Posts: 3325
Reg: 07-2005
|
Daniel Czechowski wrote on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 05:04 pm:resident keyboard warrior
Miles Baker wrote on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 06:15 pm:me
ROFL! |
Daniel Czechowski
Goo Roo
Western Australia
Soarer GT-T (sold ) & IS300 Sports Luxury
Posts: 3326
Reg: 07-2005
|
Joshua Rao wrote on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 05:31 pm:Being the most knowledgable Soarer dealer in Australia he must do a lot of research on here, planet soarer, TIF, LSOC, ALSC and Club Lexus I'm sure
All dealers do is sell. They don't know sh|t. I woudln't trust a dealer anyway. Usually when I go buy a car, I research it thoroughly, so by the time I come to see one, I don't need the dealer to be telling me car has power windows or crap like that. Often I ask a complicated specific-car question, they know fark all. I woudln't worry about the public taking his word as factually correct. |
Callum Finch
Goo Roo
WA
Soarer TT & Corolla
Posts: 3720
Reg: 09-2005
|
Daniel, you would be fantastic working in the media... the way you compile context and quotes is phenomenal =P
Daniel Czechowski wrote on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 06:21 pm:All dealers do is sell. They don't know sh|t.
Pretty sure there would be a very large number of enthusiasts who sell cars who would love to debate that statement with you.
Look at classic/muscle restoration dealers to find out.
Usually a dealer will know more about a car they sell in large volumes than you would expect. |
Daniel Czechowski
Goo Roo
Western Australia
Soarer GT-T (sold ) & IS300 Sports Luxury
Posts: 3327
Reg: 07-2005
|
Callum Finch wrote on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 06:45 pm:Daniel, you would be fantastic working in the media... the way you compile context and quotes is phenomenal =P
Politics would be a better place actually haha
Callum Finch wrote on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 06:45 pm:Usually a dealer will know more about a car they sell in large volumes than you would expect.
You'd think so wouldn't you? An example: when I bought the IS, the guy was showing me through the satnav screen and all the menus and stuff, in the main menu on the top there is a little button that says "DVD", while he's giving me the sales pitch about how great the car is, he goes "oh look, it has a DVD player as well". I know for a fact it doesn't so I dispute that. He says it won't play now becasue there is no DVD in there. I thought I'll make him feel like na idiot and asked him to show me then. He attempts to put a DVD into the car's CD player, while at the same time he presses the magical DVD button on the screen. To his embarassing surprise it referred to the map version on the DVD in the boot.
Ok, I will retract 'all' from my above statement, and replace that with 'most'  Clearly this dealer here belongs to the 'most' category haha |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 73 Corvette 4sp T-Tops
Posts: 1102
Reg: 08-2005
|
Callum Finch wrote on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 06:45 pm:Daniel, you would be fantastic working in the media... the way you compile context and quotes is phenomenal
I'm not so sure that works when he has to CHANGE his original post to make the quote. |
Luke Nieuwhof
Goo Roo
WA
Soarer TT
Posts: 2574
Reg: 07-2005
|
We are talking about the media, Miles. |
Daniel Czechowski
Goo Roo
Western Australia
Soarer GT-T (sold ) & IS300 Sports Luxury
Posts: 3328
Reg: 07-2005
|
Media and politics... I'll chuck them in the same basket haha. End result was funny (and true) nevertheless  |
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