Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 04:30 pm, by: Callum Finch(Sigeneat)
George Kyling wrote on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 03:08 pm:
Notice no difference EXCEPT I haven't had the need to pump up my tyres in the past 12 months.
Me neither and my tyre mods are cheapo brand directional 18" with some sort of funky width on regular air!
Miles Baker wrote on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 10:09 pm:
ust watch Roger Moore as James Bond in A View to a Kill. If it wasn't regular air in his tyres, he would have either drowned or been shot when he came up for air.
I wish someone did kill him. Sean Connery forever....
I have always thought it was the inpurities ie water molecules in air that effected tyre pressure. I have read about nitrogen and the true effects are as Miles has suggest. Dry air should do the trick as well.
Friday, July 03, 2009 - 09:32 am, by: David Vaughan(Davidv)
He says in the very last two paragraphs that it is water vapour which makes the difference, so dry air would be as effective. Prior to that, he merely asserts differences without any evidence, but gives lots of examples of "stress" in which the answer begs the question, to cover the fact he is not actually saying anything.
The bit about temperature talks as if Nitrogen were a magic cooling machine. Heat is generated in the sidewalls and tread of the tyre and released to the air, heats the gas inside to the same temperature for air, nitrogen or pure oxygen, and releases some of the heat through the wheel rim. The bit about rusting wheel rims is self-evidently piffle. Who here has steel wheels anyway? Cast iron, maybe?
He never explains the issue of exactly how one makes a significant difference to the proportion of nitrogen in the tyre in a street tyre setting. If you simply fill the tyres with "100% pure" nitrogen, then the proportion of nitrogen will shift from about 80% to 90%. Big deal. If you then released all above-atmospheric pressure through the valve and refilled it, then did it again, you could get around 95-97% nitrogen, for a 20% improvement in proportion of nitrogen. Excited yet? Has Bob Jane done that for you? If so, please explain in what proportion additional molecules of nitrogen translate into better performance.
Dry air is good. Plain air is cheaper. Check your bloody tyres you lazy fools. A good pressure gauge is worth far more than nitrogen.
Friday, July 03, 2009 - 11:11 am, by: Damian Ware(Frozenpod)
Given the previous post was in Feb I assume that was directed at me even though it comes across as an off the ball rant.
In the pursuit of scientific fact I will respond.
As you say air is made up of nearly 80% nitrogen do I think that pure nitrogen makes much of a difference over oxygen and nitrogen no I don't. They near identicle chemical properties.
Am I prepaired to believe monkey's at Bob Jane ofcourse not and I don't have a clue what your remarks about Bob Jane have anything to do with that article.
Am I prepaired to believe what I would consider to be experts (automotive engineer that works with race teams on optimising car setup to go faster) that have done comprehensive back to back tests on a race track to prove which results in a faster race and better usage of tyres. Yes
This is what I believe from my discussion with the above expert is the main advantage over standard air, lack of moisture. This results in less of a change in tyre pressure during a race or any heat cycle ie driving. Why is this important, the less variation in tyre pressure means you can run cold tyre pressures closer to your desired optimal tyre pressure.
Is that a good idea, I think so, does it make a difference in F1 V8 supercars for the first few laps yep it does.
Does it really mean your tyres will run heaps cooler, well I doubt it but if your tyre pressure changes a lot more than you think and you are not running optimal tyre pressures it is possible your tyre pressure will increase. Keep in mind this has nothing to do with the type of gas used to fill your tyres just your real running pressure.
Friday, July 03, 2009 - 12:19 pm, by: David Vaughan(Davidv)
It was not directed at you, nor was it off the ball at all. I was commenting upon that article which I think I have seen before and considered it a mish-mash of good and bad then and now.
As we agree, dry gas matters a little bit and he comes to that in the last two paragraphs. Prior to that he tries to relate it to street cars in ways that are wholly immaterial or irrelevant. There are valid reasons for using Nitrogen in F1 aside from pressure change and Nitrogen is not the only aspect of F1 which has no practical relationship to street driving.
The tyres will not run cooler, intrinsically. There may be less pressure change for a specific change in temperature and that will be relevant to flat-out circuit racing.
My real rant component was directed at anyone who comes across this thread without prior experience. There are many people who believe what Bob Jane says when selling up extras with tyres. I am sorry if you took any of the post as directed as your views personally Damian, because it was not at all.
Friday, July 03, 2009 - 01:30 pm, by: Damian Ware(Frozenpod)
No worries, I only posted it due to the comments of dry air vs nitrogen.
I have been speaking to motorsport tyre dealers and some so called experts lately. Sadly it appears as though whilst they are not stupid people and they do have experience with there products they do not know a great deal of technical detail about the tyres they sell.
I have found they are not that different from Bob Jane and do what ever they can to push there product whilst avoiding answering direct questions they clearly don't know the answer too.
It is interesting to see that dealers even at the motor sport end of the scale don't actually know a great deal about there product.
Basic questions such as tyre optimal temperature range where not able to be answered. I also got the standard go widest tyre you can so you can have a larger contact patch which isn't strickly true....
Friday, July 03, 2009 - 03:55 pm, by: David Vaughan(Davidv)
Interesting that last one, isn't it. A fine example of not thinking about pressure. I would have thought they would have information on tyre optimal temperature for track work though. If they are slicks or semi-slicks does the manufacturer not publish any charts?
Friday, July 03, 2009 - 04:23 pm, by: Damian Ware(Frozenpod)
I have found some hints of information on some brands and good info on the Toyo R888's for both temps and pressures.
If I was a tyre manufacture I would want people to know optimal tempreature range, perhaps even suggested pressures so they could obtain maximum performance out of my product.
Example of finding manufactures information the international Toyo website has this information listed about the R888's which is great but the Australian website has nothing.
I cant find this level of detail about any other brand of tyres I am looking at.
Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 07:16 pm, by: Ben Lipman(Ben12a)
David Vaughan wrote on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 03:55 pm:
I would have thought they would have information on tyre optimal temperature for track work though. If they are slicks or semi-slicks does the manufacturer not publish any charts?
You'd think...
I have been through all this last year. I was appalled at the level of ignorance displayed by tyre sellers across the board, local and 'motorsports distributers' alike. In fact the best guy I have spoken to is a local. At least he knew what he didn't know and said so. He wasn't scared of ringing around for answers either.
It seems there is far more importance placed on having a degree in marketing than having subject matter expertise when it comes to retail these days. Bring back trainee ships...
As Damian has said: the Toyo website in Canada has a lot of information on optimum setup for the R888. (Link below) As for anyone in Australia, I couldn't find much help. The guy at Fsport (kumho stockist) at least emailed me back with the optimal sizes to suit the Supra rims in the Kumho, and said the Silverstones would be no good on a heavy car for track work.
Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 07:30 pm, by: David Vaughan(Davidv)
I have used www.tirerack.com extensively over several years, but for street tyres of course. My first set of Pilot Sport 2 tyres and BBS wheels were imported from there. Saved myself thousands of dollars in that one purchase, literally.
Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 07:56 pm, by: Damian Ware(Frozenpod)
Interesting with the tyre sites in Canada there are other manufactures which also have some additional information which I have not seen anywhere else.
I have found the tire rack to have some of the best accurate tyre tests I have seen in recent years.
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