Monday, September 07, 2009 - 04:42 pm, by: Daniel Clarke(Dieseltrain)
SO what did you run at the drags ?
No the stock turbos dont run out of efficiency until 18-19+psi . Mine are still going fine
I reckon your timing issue is 1 of 2 things or both combined
1) The tuners are trying to tune it right on the limit on a ramp rate of what 15 ? Which means 15km/h per second . On the road you would be lucky to be accelerating at 7-8km/h per second in top gear ! This means it will detonate especially when in taller gears .
2) Your turbo is running out of efficiency, and once your trying to wind up the boost more, all its doing is heating the air up so much thats whats causing your detonation .
that sounds about right daniel very good point about the ramp rate, on the other hand with the turbo ive wound it down to 15 and it creeps up to 16.5 in 3rd and i got rid of all the pinging still had to take it down to 7 degrees timing under full boost from 8 degrees.
drags horrible lol 9.234 1/8th mile (thats all we got here no 1/4mile) with a 2.4(60ft) i think its all due to my open diff just cant take off hard always spinning one wheel
Tuesday, September 08, 2009 - 06:58 am, by: Christian Molenda(Christof)
If you had to remove 7deg of timing at 15 psi you must be running that turbo way out of its efficiency range! but have you also trimmed the map sensor signal(removed fuel) with the e-blue, as this will advance timing, thus your -7 figure might not equate to -7degrees timing being removed from original.
Either way, that turbo is VERY small. Possibly 2 of them would be good for a twin setup but
whati meant was its running +7 timing under full boost on top of the standard map, the airflow map has been trimmed aroun -15 christian , i still have come to the conclusion that the turbo is only good for about 240-250rwk
another thing i was thinking about that could have something to do with my pinging off the dyno is maybe the intercooler being inefficient on the road, its not 90 degrees as you can see in this picture would that be deflecting some airflow? I DO LIVE IN MILDURA ALWAYS HOT AND DUSTY not the best for turbos in the first place
there is no way that a KKR430 will make any more power then your making now all the guys on here mostly speek for doing and some from F....k ups a 1jz blows alot harder then a rb20 or 25 my built 1j made 200kws at 4000rpms on 9psi with a old school t04 and cihan was turning it so if there saying it out of puff it most likey is
cihan thats the tune they did for me here in mildura to make a max of 240kw on the dyno when they took timing out it dropped power, are they tuning it with the wrong methods? if so id be very intrested to hear your method because im almost ready to toss the whole engine gearbox in the bin a start looking for a 2jz . reason being evryone i take it to has some excuse to why its not making good power or midrange even.first they said fuel pump then injectors now its intercooler and turbo . i just wish i had someone to guide me in the right direction to stop chasing myu tail by these tuners learning on my car and me paying for it
CIHAN this is what they did to my emanage maps please tell me what you think,.plus i had a kkr480 wich i took off before replacing it with a 430 to reduce lag now it dosen't feel as power im almost beliving them when they say that thats juts how this engine is there excuse is,(small engine big car =no torque until 5000rpm) anywya heres the maps
Tuesday, September 08, 2009 - 06:13 pm, by: Walter Gillmore(Cl33pa)
dude!! dont bin your motor and gearbox simply because you cannot get more power from your setup! re-read what everyone has been telling you!!! get a bigger turbo! or two of the ones you have! simple. as you stated when you went to the drags and dropped boost to 15psi, which would right in the efficiency range for the turbo/ engine size, it drove better but with some slight pinging. this is due to HOT AIR! if its already always hot and dusty out there. then your turbo would probably be heating the charge air to some ridiculous temperatures and there is no way you can get around the pinging issue, the act of compressing air actually heats it up. unless you go for something cold like nitrous injection or water/ ethanol spray on your intercooler. or an ice box setup, there is no way you'll get more power from your setup simply by upping the boost.
HOT aIR is less dense and therefore cannot carry as much energy as cold air. example. 1L of hot air would weigh less than 1L of cold air. cold air = more energy as it is more dense, meaning it will carry more oxygen which in turn means more bang in your combustion chamber. if your air is hot then more fuel or anything you do will have little to no effect as there isnt enough energy/ oxygen for the fuel to burn properly. think about it. you might be able to cram more air into the combustion chamber by upping the boost but since your turbo is working soo hard and compressing the hell out of the already hot air making it even hotter and since your turbo is small (which means the wastegate will be held shut longer, thus heating the whole turbo and the air being compressed further.) your ••• enemy here is the heat generated by your miniscule turbo working soo hard !
buy a bigger turbo and let it work less. you'll find in this case less work for the turbo = more power for your engine.
edit, ive done a 1jz with a gt3540 with 1.06? rear housing and that started to boost at 4000rpm's and hit full boost by 4800rpm's it wasnt as laggy as we first thought it would be but my mate wanted more response so got the same turbo with a smaller .86? rear housing and he's all happy with that. only running 14psi and making ••••••••• of power. have not put it on the dyno yet tho. a gt3540 is pretty large. the first one we tried was straight off the xr6 turbo. so even with a turbo rated for a 4L engine the boost still kicked in at a decent rpm.
ok so the turbo will get the bin, have been looking a 3540r garrett, sound about right ? from the flow charts .86 housing for 22psi is what i need being dual roller bearing it shouldnt have the lag of a big turbo. that can be arranged ,now about my tune have they gone about it all wrong or did they do it how its meant to be because as soon as i get my car back , and i have tried 3 different places in town its always the same problem they give it back to me and its pinging under full noise. CIHAN might have an idea if they just dont know how to tune an emanage up here...btw i appreciate you guys putting your time and effort into helping me out because i know some people dont really go ahead with the advice forum members give them and just waste everyones time .
Tuesday, September 08, 2009 - 06:26 pm, by: Walter Gillmore(Cl33pa)
perfect mate!! get that turbo read the edited post above
the tune. well. they may have gone about it as best they can with your miniscule turbo mate. you cant do much to a setup that is pumping a lot of hot air. add more fuel loss of power as there is not enough oxygen. add more timing it will increase the chance of pre detonation. all of this will disappear once you get that gt3540r with .86 rear housing. the tuners will be able to breathe a sigh of relief and not have to make up excuses as to why they cant squeeze any more out of your current setup.
Tuesday, September 08, 2009 - 08:30 pm, by: Cihan Aday(Cihan)
Pantelis.
I won't openly express my opinion RE those emanage maps - it might offend someone with 30+ years of industry experience. Who knows, you can't tell these days.
So, to keep is simple here is what you need to do.
1- with the engine off and ignition on, start the connected emanage software, highlight all cells by pressing ctrl-a and press 0. Repeat until all modified maps on the emanage read 0. The fuel clamp menu should read 5.00 volts. Click Communication > export the map.
2- pop hood, from the fuse box near the battery, pull the 20amp EFI fuse for 5 minutes and replace.
3- undo the 4 hex bolts on the emanage front panel (flashing light side) and set the first three small edit: 'rotary dials' starting from the left to 7 4 0 in that order.
4- re-install OEM Toyota fuel pressure regulator and zip tie all vacuum hoses.
5- set boost to minimum gate pressure.
6- drop in a fresh set of BKR7E plugs. Confirm electrode gap of 0.8mm and change your oil.
7- start the car and drive it to someone who isn't fuel injection retarded for tuning.
Cihan if you are in melbourne can i come see you for a check up and tune. Before i start replacing turbos and other components? btw could i posibbly get a base map from you for now until we get the car properly tuned. cheers
Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 08:12 am, by: Christian Molenda(Christof)
FIRSTLY, whoever mentioned the intercooler needs a good smack in the head! ITS NOT THE INTERCOOLER THATS THE PROBLEM!
SECONDLY, im suprised you even have your rods / pisons contained within your block still, and not sticking throught the side of it! you have some massive - numbers on the airflow map, which WILL increase timing. Additionally then you have extra timing in on your timing map. whoever did this is an idiot. I have no idea how to tune, however i know this is wrong.
Cihans advice to zero all maps is good! your car will instantly run better and as your in victoria, give hime a call and get him to tune it for you. You might not get HUGE power figure with that turbo, but your car will definately run better and Cihan will get the best out of the turbo for you.
Also the idea of a garret ballbearing turbo is definately not a bad one. alot less considering flow potential. Also what injectors do you have? if too big, the emanage blue will not cope! If too small, then your not going to get the most out of a big turbo such as the 35r!
Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 10:45 am, by: Rob Rojo(Rob_tt)
There isn't another problem with the stock ECU is there? That timing map would be pretty good if the factory ecu is stuck on 10 degrees throughout the rev range.
You haven't had the timing belt changed recently and possibly missed a tooth?
Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 10:49 am, by: Pantelis Ataliotis(Prvjet)
thanks christian ,ive done what cihan has told me to do zero'd all maps looking at garrett turbo next month i will get it tuned before then though if cihan gets time because im worried now with the stupid tune that they did if it did do any damage to my engine
by the way im glad its not the intercooler as well i didnt think it was but you wonder sometimes when someone that does this for a living tells you things when they are meant to know..
hence why i dont want to bother with tuners up here any more.
Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 10:52 am, by: Pantelis Ataliotis(Prvjet)
no timing belt changes rob i got most of the conversion done at one place here they gave up half way with tuning and left me with a car that ran good one day crap the next,
although cihan said to reset the efi fuse so well see how that goes
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