SoarerCentral: Suprastick v4 status on an auto soarer with manual computer

SoarerCentral General Soarer Chat Suprastick v4 status on an auto soarer with manual computer

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Benjamin Burgess
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Friday, May 04, 2007 - 01:49 pm, by: Benjamin Burgess (Jampac)

Just throught I'd post an update on the status of the suprastick v4 in my soarer seeing as a few people have expressed interest in buying one and having it fitted.

It's been quiet a a few months now and the biggest problem I've had was tuning the shift points. This problem has come about due to the speed sensor signal recommended to use in the suprastick manual I got. Unfortunately this signal is no good in soarers, or atleast my soarer. It tends to move around with the gear your in, throttle and even whether the stall converter is locked or not. It's basically the speed signal from the gearbox.

So 2 weeks ago I changed over to use one of the rear abs speed sensors instead. This has proved to be extremely accurate, so accurate that I've started to try some new things that I couldn't do before due to inaccuracy. This includes experimenting with the lockup converter.

Over the last few days I've been slowly tuning shift points so basically the gearbox locks the converter in every gear, unlocks on changes and relocks and also stays locked while off throttle until a certain rpm so the fuel cut can initialize thru the power fc computer. This basically means I might be able to radically alter the fuel economy as automatics generally do not have fuel cut when the throttle is closed and car is moving and in gear.

If this all works, I'll be sending the computer back to its maker and getting these lockup settings hard programmed to work with economy switch and another set of lock up options to work with the power switch.

Also if anyone wants one of these installed on their soarer or 1jz-gte powered vehicle in sydney I'd be happy to help you achieve this.

Ben Daniel
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Friday, May 04, 2007 - 06:27 pm, by: Ben Daniel (Lexustt)

Thanks for the info Ben, Im soon about to go single with a PowerFC (if i can find one) and a suprastick> I haven't found a lot of info on the soarers with the suprastick but this has given me a heads up on something I can get around before I spend time and money figuring it out for myself.

Thanks !

Cihan Aday
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Friday, May 04, 2007 - 07:39 pm, by: Cihan Aday (Cihan)

Good stuff Ben, sounds great. Im looking at installing one of these in the near future based on your positive feedback

Definitely like the feeling of locked gears, much more responsive to pedal movement and easier on the trans fluid, probably a lot better around town.

Benjamin Burgess wrote on Friday, May 04, 2007 - 01:49 pm:
alter the fuel economy as automatics generally do not have fuel cut when the throttle is closed and car is moving and in gear.

Factoy ecu does decel fuel cut in every gear to as low as 1100rpm. ;)

Phil Gibson
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Friday, May 04, 2007 - 09:01 pm, by: Phil Gibson (Sciflyer)

Interesting info for someone thinking about dropping a Suprastick into a V8

Benjamin Burgess
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Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 07:25 pm, by: Benjamin Burgess (Jampac)

You can't do decel fuel cut if the converter isn't locked up however and thats the problem with the factory setup. If it did, engine would stall. Factory lock up is in 3rd only when OD is off and 4th gear. Problem is 4th gear on factory never goes below 1500rpm at watch point, it unlocks and changes to 3rd, and no more decel fuel cut and you'd need to keep OD off to use 3rd gear.

I've got it working now so it does decel fuel cut in 4th, then changes to 3rd at about 60km/h, just before decel fuel cut runs out for 4th, and continues to decel fuel cut in 3rd. Its kind of like a manual flicking back a gear in a way when it does it. I'm just trying to get it to do it in 2nd now. It'll be kind of weird, flicking back gears as the car slows down, potentially having a decel cut to about 30km/h. I've given up trying to get 1st gear lockup going correctly, just don't have the control to get it right, so it's only 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

One thing to note is the slip of my 3200 stall converter is quiet a lot, so by locking the converter in 2nd and 3rd it dramatically changes my shift points. I think the converter slip is something like 600-800rpm.

Denys Hobbs
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Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 11:00 am, by: Denys Hobbs (Denys)

Benjamin. i had the same problem when i fitted my suprastick with the speed sensor and used abs speed sensor.
how do you find the engine braking in second gear with the suprastick in manual, compared to pulling the cars gearstick back.

Benjamin Burgess
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Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 11:57 am, by: Benjamin Burgess (Jampac)

I tried a few things for 2nd gear but unfortunately I couldn't get it to stay locked if you came off the throttle. It seems to be a function built into the gearbox in that it needs about 5-10% throttle before it'll lock up the converter regardless if you send it a signal to lock up. I suspect the shifter itself may have an override for this.

For 3rd and 4th however it stays locked even when I brake which is pretty cool, makes it like a manual in these gears. Only problem is when it down shifts from 4th to 3rd the suprastick says the converter is locked but the reality is the same problem as above with 2nd gear occurs in that you need 5-10% real throttle (i've tried tricking the suprastick into thinking it has 10% when it has 0% and doesn't work).

If the suprastick could keep 2nd locked under no throttle and bleep on downshift and relock the converter, it would be absolutely awesome, at the moment it's pretty good.

Denys Hobbs
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Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 08:10 pm, by: Denys Hobbs (Denys)

ok thanks, thought i might have set mine up wrong but works the same as yours.i suppose only way to improve on this would be if you could switch off suprastick and revert back to normal using the cars ecu as i expect when you pull the cars gear lever back it also changes valve's in the box mechanically.

Brian Timms
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Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 08:23 pm, by: Brian Timms (Turbo_brian)

What's the price of a Supastick V4???

After reading this stuff, I am definately intersted in seeing what it could do for the beast.

B.

Denys Hobbs
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Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 10:17 pm, by: Denys Hobbs (Denys)

Brian, $350us http://www.latentsolutions.com/products.html

Benjamin, had a look at the bible and it shows
when the cars stick is in 2 position the(B1 second coast brake)? is used.

Justin Cook
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Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 07:25 am, by: Justin Cook (Justin)

Hi Ben,

Exactly which sensor did you use? Which pin outs from the ECU did you tap into for the ABS sensor?

I actually tried all the different speed sensors when I installed my Suprastick and they all sucked. Jumped around very weirdly.

Benjamin Burgess
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Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 09:09 am, by: Benjamin Burgess (Jampac)

I used the abs computer itself. I posted a thread on it a couple of months back with the exact pin I used, there is two, left and right wheel. If you have a single spinner diff you're in trouble, need a torsen

Benjamin Burgess
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Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 09:12 am, by: Benjamin Burgess (Jampac)

https://soarercentral.com/sc-forum/messages/282/152233.html

Denys Hobbs
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Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 09:33 am, by: Denys Hobbs (Denys)

I don't have traction control on my car the abs ecu is just to the left of the main ecu,use pin 1 or 3 in block A22 or 14 19 in block A23

Justin Cook
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Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 12:16 pm, by: Justin Cook (Justin)

Why wouldn't you just use a front wheel sensor? Wouldn't matter about the torsen then. Although I do have one...so either way its good.

Probably not so good if you go into a hard corner and a wheel lifts up.

Daniel Clarke
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Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 04:29 pm, by: Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain)

Because the front wheels are NOT getting the driven power?

Imagine what would happen in this case.....

Front wheel ABS sensor used.. Ok take off, give it full throttle into Wheelspin, should change into 2nd gear but the front wheels are only doing 45km/h... The Actual rear wheels are doing 81km/h and needs to change??? But it wont change as you used the front wheels as input!

I guess thats why.

Benjamin Burgess
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Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 05:35 pm, by: Benjamin Burgess (Jampac)

Yeah it'll just bounce off the rev limiter then. You need rear sensor otherwise you'll be doing an 8000rpm 1st gear burnout in the burnout patch.

Cihan Aday
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Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 06:19 pm, by: Cihan Aday (Cihan)

Benjamin Burgess wrote on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 07:25 pm:
You can't do decel fuel cut if the converter isn't locked up however and thats the problem with the factory setup. If it did, engine would stall. Factory lock up is in 3rd only when OD is off and 4th gear. Problem is 4th gear on factory never goes below 1500rpm at watch point, it unlocks and changes to 3rd, and no more decel fuel cut and you'd need to keep OD off to use 3rd gear.

I've got it working now so it does decel fuel cut in 4th, then changes to 3rd at about 60km/h, just before decel fuel cut runs out for 4th, and continues to decel fuel cut in 3rd. Its kind of like a manual flicking back a gear in a way when it does it. I'm just trying to get it to do it in 2nd now. It'll be kind of weird, flicking back gears as the car slows down, potentially having a decel cut to about 30km/h. I've given up trying to get 1st gear lockup going correctly, just don't have the control to get it right, so it's only 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

One thing to note is the slip of my 3200 stall converter is quiet a lot, so by locking the converter in 2nd and 3rd it dramatically changes my shift points. I think the converter slip is something like 600-800rpm.

Ben im confused.

All factory ecu powered 1JZ's get fuel cut in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, reverse and neutral. I'm 99% sure it has nothing to do with the transmission or what gear you're in. An auto ECU will still decel fuel cut in a manual car for example.

In fact i believe its based of your throttle position sensor input relative to RPM. When TPS is showing OFF, water temp and battery voltages are normal, its not in enrichment, idling or running the ISCV and RPM is above ~1100rpm it will decel fuel cut. When its in decel fuel cut, timing is advanced by ~15 to reduce engine noise and increase the engine braking effect.

My wideband shows fuel cut as "--" meaning air fuel ratios are above what the sensor can report (10:1 <-> 20:1). I can see it happens regardless of the transmission gear or the converter position. I'm happy to post a video cutting in each gear and neutral.. or post logs of it happening.

Why you think the engine would stall during decel fuel cut with the converter unlocked alludes me.. Its just a stall converter, if engine rpm sags below drive line rpm and passes 1100rpm the injectors will fire again.

It shouldn't have anything to do with the suprastik or the transmission to begin with, check your PFC settings. That failing check TPS calibration.

Denys Hobbs
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Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 08:51 pm, by: Denys Hobbs (Denys)

my wideband shows 20/1 the same if you lift off the throttle.
Daniel, good point i will check which one i have used, also the suprastick would not work on a dyno if you had it linked into the front.

Benjamin Burgess
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Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 09:03 pm, by: Benjamin Burgess (Jampac)

So what is this B1 second coast brake?

Denys Hobbs
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Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 09:26 pm, by: Denys Hobbs (Denys)

Benjamin Burgess
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Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 09:42 pm, by: Benjamin Burgess (Jampac)

So is this mechanically enabled or can it be electrically triggered?

Denys Hobbs
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Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 09:50 pm, by: Denys Hobbs (Denys)

mechanically i would think as it only seems to come into play when the stick is moved into 2 or low.

Cihan Aday
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Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 10:10 pm, by: Cihan Aday (Cihan)

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/AT21.pdf
According to the autoshop article regarding Toyota transmissions, B1 is used to allow deceleration engine braking (as we know)..
Also, the 2nd coast brake and the F1 one way clutch have to work together. So B1 is not active unless the one way clutch is in use.

Good read if its relevant.

Denys Hobbs
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Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 10:26 pm, by: Denys Hobbs (Denys)

arrr yes thats the puppy (Won't give you deceleration fuel cut however) No but this is how you have more engine braking in second gear compared to the suprastick.

Benjamin Burgess
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Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 10:35 pm, by: Benjamin Burgess (Jampac)

but this is only when you use the shifter.

Benjamin Burgess
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Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 10:38 pm, by: Benjamin Burgess (Jampac)

so I thinking if you could enable this you could in theory keep the torque converter locked up in 2nd gear with no throttle applied.

Denys Hobbs
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Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 10:41 pm, by: Denys Hobbs (Denys)

(but this is only when you use the shifter)
Yes seems so.

Benjamin Burgess
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Monday, June 04, 2007 - 09:07 am, by: Benjamin Burgess (Jampac)

Yeah thats right decel fuel cut works different. For me when the suprastick drops the gear from 4th to 3rd with no throttle applied it unlocks the converter changes to 3rd then it says it has relocked the converter. However what you get instead is this engine braking like effect which is not the same as with the converter locked. You do get some decel fuel cut, but no were near as much decel fuel cut as you do when the converter is locked up correctly in 3rd gear. Basically what I get in 3rd (Just needs throttle applied once to lock correctly, and it stays locked when off throttle) and 4th is what a manual transmission does. What you get from a normal auto setup is some in between like setting, that isn't fully locked, but no free reving like it is for us in 2nd gear.

Benjamin Burgess
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Monday, June 04, 2007 - 09:28 am, by: Benjamin Burgess (Jampac)

Just found the section on page 28 where it says engine braking is only applied in 2nd gear when the shifter is in 2nd gear position, don't get it when shifter in D. I think for me however due to the looser converter it may play around with how much engine braking effect I get.

What still doesn't quiet make sense however if this is hydraulically engaged then how come if I put the shifter in 2nd, i don't get the brake effect with the suprastick engaged? I'm pretty sure I don't.

Denys Hobbs
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Monday, June 04, 2007 - 09:48 am, by: Denys Hobbs (Denys)

can't try mine as i have bits stripped off to put new timing belt on, go here page 30 http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/AT25.pdf

Denys Hobbs
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Monday, June 04, 2007 - 10:00 am, by: Denys Hobbs (Denys)

i have standard converter in mine,engine braking in fourth and third seem about the same as normal but second falls out around 20mph.

Cihan Aday
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Monday, June 04, 2007 - 10:15 am, by: Cihan Aday (Cihan)

Denys Hobbs wrote on Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 10:26 pm:
No but this is how you have more engine braking in second gear compared to the suprastick.

Also why i could probably lock 2nd with zero throttle too. Since the one way clutch is enabled, i shouldn't have any problem forcing the lockup on with 12v in 2nd gear and little or no throttle.

Benjamin Burgess
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Monday, June 04, 2007 - 10:42 am, by: Benjamin Burgess (Jampac)

I've heard from dennis with the 2jz skyline, he did this and got strange results, wasn't the same as the suprastick as you can't unlock on gear change (you'll stuff the transmission if you keep it locked).

I suspect then that the suprastick is actually locking the stall converter (it indicates it's locked) but with the B2 hydraulic valve not enabled, it free revs in the gearbox.

Benjamin Burgess
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Monday, June 04, 2007 - 06:42 pm, by: Benjamin Burgess (Jampac)

Ok went for a quick drive around the block tonight and yep it works. If you put the shifter in L (1st) it'll engine brake if the suprastick is held in 1st gear and locks the converter and does fuel cut on decel. The same occurs for 2nd gear on the suprastick and 2nd on the shifter. So how do we implement this?

I was thinking have a switch that goes 12v when ever the shifter is moved to 2nd or L or OD is switched off that changes the suprastick to manual mode automatically. The next thing you need is a method to tell the suprastick what gear you are in on the shifter. The suprastick has two configurations, for manual shifting. Two buttons for up and down or one button for up and down that has two seperate voltages ie. the cruise control stick. How you would do this without making a circuit to output the correct signals, I have no idea, so looks like I'll need to sit down a draw a circuit to do this.

Now the next question is, could you implement an up down switch that would also move the shifter or something in the gearbox to enable the right valves for the correct gear?

Denys Hobbs
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Monday, June 04, 2007 - 08:44 pm, by: Denys Hobbs (Denys)

ok well done, i have seen some thing thats used on motor bikes to move the shifter by electronics, i will have a search around.

Now the next question is, could you implement an up
down switch that would also move the shifter or something in the gearbox to enable the right valves for the correct gear?

Denys Hobbs
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Monday, June 04, 2007 - 09:00 pm, by: Denys Hobbs (Denys)

maybe on these lines
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PINGEL-ELECTRIC-SHIFTERS-UNIVERSAL-KITS-SOME-FABRICATI_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ35600QQihZ002QQitemZ4630467131QQrdZ1

Garrett Rowe
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Monday, June 11, 2007 - 09:23 am, by: Garrett Rowe (Garrettrowe)

Hope it's not too late to chime in on this thread:

The coast brake, as you have discovered is purely mechanical. I have thought about including a linear actuator setup to throw around the stock linkage, but the problem is these are not cheap. If someone has the parts, the programming side of this is easy.

The 5% throttle lockup drop that you are seeing is hardcoded - I can get rid of it, but i had bad experiences during testing with things staying locked at 0 throttle. If your lockup clutch is built enough that it will take the possible abuse of this, that limit can be removed.

Benjamin Burgess
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Monday, June 11, 2007 - 11:20 am, by: Benjamin Burgess (Jampac)

My stall converter was built by MV autos and my transmission has also be built to take the power. I'm pretty sure it can take it as I run around now with 2nd gear locking the converter and ran this setup last time I was drag racing. I use that dyno lockup switch I got you to program to keep my converter locked up in 3rd off the throttle. Just found second needs the coast brake to lock up correctly.

Khris Cox
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Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 03:17 am, by: Khris Cox (Kc95sc400)

Hey guys, hate to bring back such an old thread but..

Benjamin, was hoping you would share your settings / shift tables. Just installed a SS onto my Lexus SC400.

Thanks,

Khris

Benjamin Burgess
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Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 07:30 am, by: Benjamin Burgess (Jampac)

Sold it all off dude nearly a year ago. I never took a snap shot of my settings, but someone on this forum bought my suprastick so they may post it up.

Khris Cox
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Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 08:07 am, by: Khris Cox (Kc95sc400)

Cool man, thanks for the reply!

Any suggestions on tuning? I'm not really sure where to start.

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